The Baron of Diemed

[Magnus Argent]

Could it be that the Pact of Ilien forced a demotion from Duke to Baron as a symbol of Diemed's acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the break-away realms of Ilien, Endier, and Roesone (the Pact was signed prior to Medoere's split from Diemed)?

[irdeggman]

No one had has explained the confusion because no one has yet written an explanation of the confusion and offered solutions. This is exactly the kind of thing that a reader can develop him or herself.

QFT

This type of thing also reinforces the intrigue of what has gone on behind the scenes in Cerillia. This also can lead to a whole lot of well thought out subtext and subplots that the DM can insert into a longer running game.

[ArchScarlettie]

Could it be that the Pact of Ilien forced a demotion from Duke to Baron as a symbol of Diemed's acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the break-away realms of Ilien, Endier, and Roesone (the Pact was signed prior to Medoere's split from Diemed)?

Doesn't seem logical, a noble title can not simply be "lost", as Diemed still exists, the Duke of Diemed is an original title appointed by the first Reole. It is a hereditary title. Why would a family simply "give up" a dynasty of Dukes?

[AndrewTall]

Doesn't seem logical, a noble title can not simply be "lost", as Diemed still exists, the Duke of Diemed is an original title appointed by the first Reole. It is a hereditary title. Why would a family simply "give up" a dynasty of Dukes?

That depends on what you mean by family. For example suppose Harl Diem has a son by his wife and another by a servant. The first son is his heir in terms of nobility with the second having in all likelihood only a token title; both are heirs in terms of ancestry, and either could be heir in terms of bloodline inheritance. If the second son winds up inheriting then the title they are born with may be retained instead of the grander title being assumed, particularly if titles must be accepted by either a conclave of nobles, council of heralds, or similar body.

In Cerilia this is slightly more likely to occur than in a true medieval society due to the land's choice and other functions of blood - Erik the bastard-born son of a peasant woman may well win the throne from Peter the noble son of two dynasties if Erik inherits the fathers bloodline and gains fame through adventure ending up with twice Peter's bloodline score. Erik may well have to accept a demotion in the title they win from Peter however to gain the acceptance of their peers - how better to prove humility and lack of ambition than to surrender a noble rank? And how little to give up in reality so long as you control the realm...

Thus while Roele awarded the first Duke his title, as the family line kinks and bends the family holding the crown may fail to have the right to the title, be unable to demand it be given, or be forced to give it up to avoid conflict - which would you give up as ruler of Diemed if Avani seemed nervous of your ambition: half a dozen military units used to defend against separatist sedition or a title that you may well be able to reclaim when Avanil is mollified as to your intentions?

[ArchScarlettie]

I'd rather marry into the Boeruine line and force Avanil into a war on two fronts, option C, in that case.

I still think it best to see Diemed as a duchy, as it controls part of the Imperial City of Anuire, if it was to bow to pressure to Avanil, I'm certain Avanil would be more concerned about being ceded the law in the Imperial City than forcing Diemed into a lesser noble title to reflect some fleeting notion of selfish pride.

[AndrewTall]

I used Avanil purely as an example - the concept simply being that wars and conflict are often caused by perceived threat rather than actual. Dropping a title reduces the apparent ambition and therefore the perceived threat.

I prefer different families having different rank as it adds colour to the game, the differences suggests however that it is hard for someone not in the direct line to inherit a superior rank - Ghoere would not therefore become a duke simply by marrying his heir to one of the remnants of a ducal family and claiming the vacant title of one of the Ghoere dukedoms.

This could be used to drive support for a new emperor - only they can recognise new families, etc. Would Ghoere support an emperor who would elevate his family to its rightful place as a ducal power? Officially second in rank only to the emperor - and potential heir if the emperor falls? Depending on the situation it might swing his views.

Similarly it creates a tool for the more powerful families (Avan, Mhor, Boeruine), as they are still dukes/princes they can elevate people to higher noble ranks than a mere baron.

Diemed has in my view been very unlucky - they've lost a lot of land recently, and probably got unlucky with the titles, for example having a family branch ascend while the other powers were disinterested in or at odds with Diemed.

I think I will have a college of heralds in a new campaign to 'justify' some of the lower than expected ranks and add a little intrigue, adding in responsibilities over bloodlines and the like - if they are tracking bloodlines for flaws (likelihood of turning awnie? Weak blood powers?) then they can still have a reasonable influence even without the backing of an imperial court.

[ArchScarlettie]

If losing lands causes the loss of a title, how would you explain the weak realm of Alamie still able to lay claim to the title of Duke after losing Tournen? Alamie is in a far, far more troubled position than Diemed.

[AndrewTall]

I'd agree that 'start fresh' logic would suggest that all the old realms, including Ghoere, should be dukedoms - but don't see how such uniformity benefits the game whereas the existing distinctions indicate turbulent (i.e. interesting) history which is probably better for the game. I have to admit I don't see the practical difference in titles anyway, power is generally dictated by wealth, military might, diplomatic skill and the like not simply the official tag on a letter.

If however you are looking for an explanation for the demotion, Diemed's loss of Roesone is one clear potential 'demoter', since it was a major loss of power (and likely bloodline), Diemed before the loss of the eastern provinces had around 50 population levels (23 existing + medoere 9 + roesone 18 excluding Bellam), compared to Mhoried (31), Ghoere (40), Avanil (37) and Boeruine (36). Diemed therefore went from being the strongest duchy (by a fair margin) or princedom as some sources put it, to being definitely second-tier. Since however much of the loss in stature occurred from the wars by Ghoere and Aerenwe prior to the secession of Roesone (per the Roensone PSO) and Medoere is a very recent secession I'm not sure why there would be a direct link to the loss of title from the loss of land, unless Diem's complete failure to subdue a mere mercenary in Roseone caused some great shame on the family.

Why Alam retains the status of duke while Diem does not, might then be due to luck, the fact that both Avanil and Boeruine want his support, or any number of other factors. Alamie I would note in passing is still quite a reasonable realm: 22 population which is comfortably second tier with Aerenwe, Diemed, Dhoesone, Elinie (20), Tuornen (23), Mieres (21), Roesone (21), Taline (18, but boosted due to the church holdings), and Taeghas (23). Whether Alamie is weakened or strengthened by its central position will depend heavily on the diplomatic skills of its regent - one could as fairly say that Diemed is very weak as they border few potential allies as say that Alamie is weak because they border many potential enemies

An alternative approach would be to say that rather than the direct loss of land causing the demotion, possibly Diem was originally tasked by Roele with 'the defense of the southern coast from the Arnienbae to the Erebannien' or suchlike rather than simply 'defense over the land of Diemed' meaning that while the current realm of Diemed is composed of a fragment of the old duchy, it fails to qualify as the original dukedom.

Another alternative is that during the 500 years since the fall of the empire the Diemed line was ousted and subsequently retook their lands, but was unable for some reason to assume their original title. A lot of history can happen in 500 years so many explanations are possible.

Personally I prefer the family line argument to the land argument for the drop in rank since it avoids worrying players that a loss of land will be compounded by drop in station, and makes strategic marriages more important (boosting diplomacy and aiding weaker realms with good lines).

[Gwrthefyr]

I'd agree that 'start fresh' logic would suggest that all the old realms, including Ghoere, should be dukedoms - but don't see how such uniformity benefits the game whereas the existing distinctions indicate turbulent (i.e. interesting) history which is probably better for the game. I have to admit I don't see the practical difference in titles anyway, power is generally dictated by wealth, military might, diplomatic skill and the like not simply the official tag on a letter.

The lack of these distinctions, however, does little to preclude a turbulent history. In a hierarchic society, the official tag is important up to a point: otherwise it might look as if the situation is temporary/unjustified. I don't really see why Tael isn't a duke when Raenech is. Well, besides the fact that Tael may like being in a perpetual state of siege (or Ghoere might be an aristocratic republic like Venice, who knows, so it could be kept as a personal title). In Osoerde, we see Jaison Raenech staking a claim to one of the duchies, and he thus takes the title. This might leave the situation much (much) fuzzier than RoE expects it (the authors were too much people of their time when it came to setting up the diplomatic situation and justifying it, too many modern preoccupations for a game thematically set during the quattrocento).

After all, we see at least two, probably four cases of title inflation (Aerenwe, Brosengae; Avanil, Diemed).

[kgauck]

After all, we see at least two, probably four cases of title inflation (Aerenwe, Brosengae; Avanil, Diemed).

Aerenwe: A kingdom is not better than a duchy, the Rjurik realms are all kingdoms are hardly more magnificent than the Anuirean duchies. All the materials describe all of the realms as kingdoms, so to impute qualities to kingdom that make it more than a duchy is misgiven. Aerenwe simply withdrew from the Anuirean system and so prefered the style of a kingdom to one of a duchy, there is no suggested elevation there.

Brosengae was a duchy and once controlled much of what is now in the hands of the Count of Taeghas. Hence no elevation there. She is another example of someone who lost footing in position without losing the grandure of title, bit there is no inflation here.

Avanil has been covered in some great detail, but again there is no inflation here.