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  1. #11
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    Well in fact I tried using it... but its system is really a mess... Empire was better done in my view... and BR is way more simpler.

    Really didn't change much... its only expressed in gold piece and not in Gold bars (since it would fractions of fractions...)

    I didn't use maintenance and muster since DnD3.5 offers rules for that (being Stronghold Builders and Cry Havoc). It's easier to modify a bit BRrules to include them. Cry Havoc can manage a group of 10 guards for your Temple holding. Which would cost around 180 gp/per season in garrison (or 0.09 GB).

    If you look at BRrules on army... you have 200 soldiers per unit for 1 GB. Which gives a salary of 10 gp/per season per soldiers. Has per Stronghold builders, a soldier should get 6gp/per month, so 18 gp/per season. Seems Birthright doesn't follow price list of DMG3.5 p105 (states an hireling Mercenary should get 2sp/per day or 14sp/week or 5.6gp/month or 16.8gp/season).

    The reason I upgraded the rating chart is simple. My realm would have all been with Province (0) because population is below 1,000 ! So it wouldn't have been interesting for my Players to earn no money out of Ruling. And nobody would rule those regions since there's no money for nothing. That in mind, now my province is level 1 because it's more than 500 citizens so now there is hope !

    1 GB = 1000 gp

    Level population min population max

    0 0 499
    1 500 999
    2 1000 2499
    3 2500 3999
    4 4000 5499
    5 5500 6999
    6 7000 8499
    7 8500 9999
    8 10000 14999
    9 15000 19999
    10 20000 24999
    11 25000 29999
    12 30000 34999
    13 35000 39999
    14 40000 49999
    15 50000 59999
    16 60000 69999
    17 70000 79999
    18 80000 89999
    19 90000 99999
    20 100000 100000+



    thanks !

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panics View Post
    If you look at BRrules on army... you have 200 soldiers per unit for 1 GB. Which gives a salary of 10 gp/per season per soldiers. Has per Stronghold builders, a soldier should get 6gp/per month, so 18 gp/per season. Seems Birthright doesn't follow price list of DMG3.5 p105 (states an hireling Mercenary should get 2sp/per day or 14sp/week or 5.6gp/month or 16.8gp/season).
    Normal recruits are not hirlings or mercenaries, they are people who owe you feudal dues, and perform some of their service for free in exchange for your protection, justice, and in the case of knights (huskarls, and the like) for land and other benefices.

    That's why mercenaries have higher costs associated with them. Its cheaper to have a landlord relationship with your recruits than it is to go out into the market place and buy someone's martial labors. They are also more loyal and have better morale.

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    You also changed the rating level of provinces/holdings.

    This has major impacts on things other than income (GB), Regency (RP) and mustering/troop availablity - it also affects all Realm Spells since they are dependent on source/temple holding size.

    So, while it seems like you only made small changes - the domino effect comes into play.

    Also note that since the realm size is so low you are also increasing the "power" of source regents so they will quickly overpower your entire world.

    The source rating is what is left after you subtract the province rating from the source potential (based on the type of terrain).
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    It looks like Panics has only changed the scale of things, so no such effects would actually happen. For our purposes, he's just counting half-levels instead of full levels. Panics already made mention of doubling the cost of realm actions to account for his half-sized GB, and gave us a chart that shows how for a given population, his province rating was half of the normal amount. If one reasons that source levels are also considered as GB and provincial population levels, as half of a standard level, then indeed all is exactly the same.

  5. #15
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    Sounds like you need more income, either through more holdings, or
    vassalage. Is one province (1) all you have?

    Lee.



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  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    It looks like Panics has only changed the scale of things, so no such effects would actually happen. For our purposes, he's just counting half-levels instead of full levels. Panics already made mention of doubling the cost of realm actions to account for his half-sized GB, and gave us a chart that shows how for a given population, his province rating was half of the normal amount. If one reasons that source levels are also considered as GB and provincial population levels, as half of a standard level, then indeed all is exactly the same.

    Yes but. . . .

    Since his example was a province (1) then the source potential is still the remainder.


    So the source potential is 7 for a predominantly plains terrain with a province level (1).

    Using the doubling factor for holding levels also results in the doubling of source potential. That puts the source potential at 14.


    Basically whenever a setting design with low population is being used as the basis it will result in an increase in the relative power of any source regent. It has too since popluation (and its corresponding development) will remove the source potential.

    This is just one of the hidden results of making what seems to be a simple change in any 3.5 based rule sets.

    Another is the RP income, since it is based on holding size. So if that size is doubled then RP income is doubled. Yes this mitigated by doubling the RP cost of actions, but how about the hit point bonus that regents gain? It is based on RP income - so in this rule set another "hidden" result is that all regents have had their hit points increased. Imagine the net result to someone like the Gorgon because of this.

    In this type of setting structure elves will without a doubt rule the world, IMO. Province level does not affect source potential for elven domains so an elf regent get to double dip here. That is a lot of bonus hit points, income, RP and all of those other things.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
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    hmm ok... I will admit that you're right irdeggman ! In a Birthright campaign... what I forgot to say, is that I "use" BR rules in my Forgotten Realms campaign. So I don't use Source holding (replaced by Arcane (vs Temples) holdings).

    For the RP... I must admit that I didn't look forward to this concept. I'm trying to find its use...so have put it aside. My primary concern is to use BR Ruling rules since my PCs are Province rulers solely.

    To answer to Lee... my PCs don't have any other holding. Not even Law since its the Duchal Lord who's the law. But, they could become part of another holding and it would raise they're funds... but that's another matter for now...

    Thanks !

    PS: Where can I find RP rules ? More Actions ?

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panics View Post
    hmm ok... I will admit that you're right irdeggman ! In a Birthright campaign... what I forgot to say, is that I "use" BR rules in my Forgotten Realms campaign. So I don't use Source holding (replaced by Arcane (vs Temples) holdings).
    This makes things real messy IMO. So a straight up "porting" will always have trouble. You have to do a real large stretch to insert bloodlines and all they entail into a FR setting without a large amount of "tweaking". I mean the iconic FR characters should have at least great bloodlines then.

    For the RP... I must admit that I didn't look forward to this concept. I'm trying to find its use...so have put it aside. My primary concern is to use BR Ruling rules since my PCs are Province rulers solely.
    Which Fields of Blood handles fairly well since it is based on no RP (or bloodlines at all) - well at least IMO.

    To answer to Lee... my PCs don't have any other holding. Not even Law since its the Duchal Lord who's the law. But, they could become part of another holding and it would raise they're funds... but that's another matter for now...
    Then they are essentially vassels. Regents who have sworn fealty to some "over lord". This makes things slightly different in how to handle - since they are only slightly "free" in what actions they can attempt. It all depends on what the vasselage agreement was (and that can change between any 2 parties involved).
    Duane Eggert

  9. #19
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    hum well... i'll check back Fields of Blood... maybe I've miss something and its that point that screw up my view and understanding of those rules.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    He's measuring holdings in pints, and we're using quarts. 14 pints is still 7 quarts. Even if he calls it 14,000 demi-pints, its still 7 quarts.

    Panics, your stuff looks fine. As long as you remember to carry through your alternative scale to everything, its gonna work the same way it would in a standard game (other assumptions being equal).

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