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  1. #11
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    That link is for Birthright Campaign Setting Rulebook. I think I saw that scan, and if its the same, one with one page upside down, You'll get there full AD&D Birthright Campaign Setting Boxed Set scan pack (Birthright Rulebook, Ruins of Empire, Atlas of Cerilia, Reference Cards, War Cards, Battlefield, and Poster Maps.) While Atlas of Cerilia holds info about whole continent, Ruins of Empire is dedicated to Anuire, You would still have to get other books for the rest of the Cerilia, like "Cities of the Sun" for Khinasi, "Heavens of the Great Bay" for Brechtur, "The Rjurik Highlands" for Rjurik, and "Tribes of the Heartless Wastes" for Vosgaard. Although, if You want to do something similar to Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance, You wont expand beyond Anuire. In Ruins of Empire, You'll get short introductory adventure in it, that incorporates adventure level as well as strategic (realm) level of AD&D Birthright.


    AD&D Core Rulebooks:
    PHB = Player's HandBook
    DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide
    MM = Monster Manual

    Bests...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    If your desire is to reproduce the realm play of the Gorgon's Alliance, ruling countries and going to war, then you need a dozen or so pages from the original rulebook or its 3.5 upgrade.

    If you want adventures where characters explore ancient ruins for lost artifacts, then you need the rest of the rulebook or its upgrade and several additional books and have a whole game system to learn.

    The previous BR game was mostly based on the dozen pages that deal with realm actions and war actions. Its a managable body of rules.

  3. #13
    I was thinking about that last night while going through all the PDF's available at RPG Now and reading up on a bunch of history on the wiki. I have just about all of the PDF's on my wishlist now. >.<

    Thanks for all the advice. I'm not sure how I want to approach this, but atleast I can get something started with the campaign setting. I hope you all don't mind if I keep asking questions along the way.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The previous BR game was mostly based on the dozen pages that deal with realm actions and war actions. Its a managable body of rules.
    This is the key. As long as you avoid the Adventure action (which would force you to design a completely different game engine anyway), you don't need to have any underlying RPG at all! It's marvelous. The only things from the regular D&D rulebooks which have any bearing on the domain rulership game are character class (wizard, warrior, priest, etc.), used to determine which holdings generate regency points and which realm spells, if any, can be cast), and character class level (e.g., 7th-level wizard, 3rd-level thief), used in rolling realm initiative and to determine which realm spells, if any, can be cast (and with what effect). That's all. You don't need any standard D&D books at all.

    If you use the war card combat system, then you have to implement those rules as well (yet another interface, as in the Sierra game), which requires knowing something about the magic spells available to each character class and level, in order to determine their effect on the battlefield. To do that, you will need the Player's Handbook, but not the other two. If you want to keep it simple, I'd start with a system which adjudicates combat without much direct player control, such as Solymr's BR War Machine ( http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare...brwarmach.html ); if you go that route or a similar one, you once again need nothing but the original BR rulebook to play. Once you get that and read through it, much should be familiar from the Sierra game, but you will also encounter a number of rules which they seem to have implemented incorrectly. =)


    Ryan

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    This is the key. As long as you avoid the Adventure action (which would force you to design a completely different game engine anyway), you don't need to have any underlying RPG at all! It's marvelous. The only things from the regular D&D rulebooks which have any bearing on the domain rulership game are character class (wizard, warrior, priest, etc.), used to determine which holdings generate regency points and which realm spells, if any, can be cast), and character class level (e.g., 7th-level wizard, 3rd-level thief), used in rolling realm initiative and to determine which realm spells, if any, can be cast (and with what effect). That's all. You don't need any standard D&D books at all.

    If you use the war card combat system, then you have to implement those rules as well (yet another interface, as in the Sierra game), which requires knowing something about the magic spells available to each character class and level, in order to determine their effect on the battlefield. To do that, you will need the Player's Handbook, but not the other two. If you want to keep it simple, I'd start with a system which adjudicates combat without much direct player control, such as Solymr's BR War Machine ( http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare...brwarmach.html ); if you go that route or a similar one, you once again need nothing but the original BR rulebook to play. Once you get that and read through it, much should be familiar from the Sierra game, but you will also encounter a number of rules which they seem to have implemented incorrectly. =)


    Ryan
    Thanks a lot for all the help. I've been very unsure about which books to get. is this the Player's Handbook you were talking about?

    How different are the different editions of the rules, such as 2 and 3.5? Should I stick to 2nd edition since Birthright came out in that, or should I try using the 3.5 rules being designed here?

    Lastly, does the Birthright Campaign Setting PDF have the same basic contents as the boxed set, or will I need some other stuff with it to help me get the idea?
    Last edited by Kami; 07-01-2007 at 04:34 AM.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    Thanks a lot for all the help. I've been very unsure about which books to get. is this the Player's Handbook you were talking about?
    Looks like it. But that mostly covers adventure play - and that would be a lot of work to make a game in an area that has been well trodden...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    How different are the different editions of the rules, such as 2 and 3.5? Should I stick to 2nd edition since Birthright came out in that, or should I try using the 3.5 rules being designed here?
    Birthright has 3 different types of play: adventure (standard D&D), battle (war-gaming) and realm (civ-type gather resources and grow). There are quite a lot of differences between 2e and 3e at 'adventure' level, a few at 'battle' level; at 'realm' level 3e has a number of differences although mostly these are to reduce randomness or reflect philosophical or mechanical changes in the 'adventure' system.

    A lot of gamers seem to have shifted over to 3e, certainly anyone new to the game would be more used to it, and the general mechanic is more consistent than 2e. Given that there are two game systems (the Gorgon's alliance and birmail) that run on 2e, if you want to do something new I'd suggest 3e (and get beta testers hint hint). Have you seen both systems?

    It depends a lot though on what you intend to do with the game you make. For example whether you are building a 'solo adventure' for you to have fun with, or if you are building a 'DM's helper' to help in a PnP/PBEM game.

    Solo adventure
    The Gorgon's alliance tried to do all three levels of play in BR (with varying success). An adventure level game is like vast numbers of other games on the market, an avatar (the PC) with buddies wanders around a map interacting (fighting, talking) to other beings and objects in the game. A Battle game would let you play out combat between armies without having to roll a million dice. A realm game would let you build up a realm and play against other realms, but might be a bit limited on its own.

    DM helper:
    Birmail is an example of a DM helper. It handles most of the 'book-keeping' for realm play saving the DM time and effort on what many see as a chore.

    A game which tracked realm play, handled the bulk of NPC realm actions, but allowed a 'DM' to force actions by NPC's to suit their machinations, make manual updates to NPC's, holding levels, edit the map to produce an aesthetically pleasing design, etc would be of great help to a 3e GM - with that sort of game adventures and battles could be played on a table-top or on alternate platforms and the results simply updated onto the 'helper', if the helper could actually be played at realm level then all the better

    Given that you can get various games for adventure play (baldur's gate, neverwinter nights) and battle play (medieval war) I'd go for a realm level game only, or a realm+battle game to make something different. I'd have thought an adventure-type game would be the hardest to build in any event and the one most likely to be judged by it's looks rather than the quality of the game itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    Lastly, does the Birthright Campaign Setting PDF have the same basic contents as the boxed set, or will I need some other stuff with it to help me get the idea?
    Looks right, but:

    The only thing you really need from the set are the BR rules (for bloodlines and ruling realms) and the map. The rules were an add-on to the standard AD&D system and you could use the BRCS without too much trouble, maps can be found in various places on the net.

    If you want to know more about the setting you can look on the wiki - it's got the history, several realm descriptions, etc.

    The only real problem with using the BRCS realm level rules with 2e would be in RP collection - in BRCS the system uses skill levels, in 2e it simply said all get RP from province levels, fighters get RP from law, priests from temples, thieves from guilds and wizards from sources. Otherwise although a lot changed from 2e birthright to BRCS you should be fine.

  7. #17
    Wow. That was pretty comprehensive. Mostly, this game is not so much to do something new or attract lots of people. It's mostly just getting experience in game design and programming. I want to make it as true to the Birthright setting as possible, so I need to know the mechanics of it.

    I suppose I could start with the Realm section of the game and then add on to that with the other two types if I decide to.

    I have tried Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance (which I'm playing at this very moment) and I have looked at BirMail, but have never actually used it. Mostly what I want to do is the Birghtright: The Gorgon's Alliance kind of thing, with or without the adventures.

    I suppose I will use the BRCS rules. It saves me $5 anyways.

    Sorry if I asked anything repetitive. I have a tendency to have problems wrapping my head around new things. I should be able to figure out the rest from the Campaign Setting, I hope. Thanks.

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