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Thread: The Magian
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10-03-2008, 02:10 AM #11
I also replaced 5 levels of wizard and give him and 5 levels of prestige class arch-mage.
He would be the only person in the world that I will allow. Gives him a little extra edge and making him ultimately the most powerful wizard on the continant.
-BB
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10-03-2008, 05:35 AM #12
I agree that the Magian should be the epitome of spellcasting, arcane research and logical if not even scientific pursuit. Though his form doesn't have the martial prowess of the comparable powers of the Gorgon and Raven it should be considered that his form isn't his limit. The Gorgon and Raven can die but once and in his lich-like form it is implied that the Magian's form can be destroyed limitless times. Thus he is much more able to take greater risks and get greater gains with out losing much but a temporary form. And that is using assumptions of one of the lesser interpretations of the Magian's power.
Now to address an assumption about the Magian. From Blood Enemies page 59 paragraph 2, "The Magian's orgins are obscure, and his name was unheard of in Cerilia until six years ago. The Magian was a spellcaster from across the Sea of Dragons..." It seems that it is assumed that the Magian is one of the Lost. There is one place that I've found that says he is and that is Bloodspawn page 4 last paragraph. However the lost files of Richard Baker makes the implication that this is false by not naming the Magian as one of the Lost. I agree with this assumption cause it fits the story much better.
The problem of the Magian having a minor bloodline. If he's only been exposed to the divine essence for only six years, then it makes sense. Also if that is true, it is a testament to his sheer power that he's achieved such a high bloodline in that little time.
The problem of the Magian's HP being so low. He doesn't need martial prowess cause of his master over magic. His martial prowess comes from his controlled undead minions that he has conquered and now uses their powers to his own ends. Thus it would follow that any realm he takes over you could see the former masters, lords and regents join his legions of undead proxies. I wouldn't rule out the Gorgon and Raven among those he has on his list for such a place either.
The land of the Magian being prosperous is testament to his vision and methods of how to run a realm. The Gorgon is not a leader he's a warrior. There is no real future for him as an emperor of Cerilia cause he doesn't give room for trade amongst other things thereby limiting any expansion. The Magian balances everything it would appear and lets the realm function as a realm. His twisted and corrupt form are but a means for his end. Thus the essence of the gods that has been absorbed into his "soul" reflects the style of his rule not what is happening to his body. The original game mechanics of realms having alignments would support this assumption.
The assumption that the Magian is a lich. I agree if we went with him being one of the Lost it would be a special form of lich not completely bound to the template. However I don't agree with that assumption. Therefore I like using a lich-like model for him.
There is a bias that the Magian isn't as powerful as the Gorgon I admit. Also there is no way to convince any long held consensus that the Magian is one of the Lost to the contrary. I simply choose not to gimp this character and use him to his full potential. It's my personal setting choice. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. The rest is blah blah blah on these two issues. Let's just focus on sharing ideas about this character and see what happens.
With that in mind let me begin with my ideas for some general background. The Magian comes from a continent far off. His culture is oriental like China. This ancient human culture developed a way of arcane spellcasting and divine spell casting is not as dominant as it is in Cerilia. His psychology is alien to Cerilia as his culture is very different. He reveres his emperor and culture to this very day. However due to his dark magics and immoral arcane practices he was banished from his homeland and forsaken by his emperor. The Magian ended up on the fringes of his homeland and gathered a following among "barbarians". His troops that he brought over are from a Mongolian-like nomadic warrior culture that have remained loyal to him.
I haven't worked out everything cause no one has ever penetrated that far into my storyline for my personal DM pet. What brought him to Cerilia? Ambition for his own empire modeled after his homeland of course. That's how it is prosperous. That is why his bloodline is minor. The use of necromantic arts is forbidden by his nature friendly / heaven friendly homeland. For him there is no conflict so he didn't take offense or grudge against his emperor. His lawful outlook does support that he still uses his culture as his foundation for his vision. Like I said his psychology is different allowing for his banishment, reverence, and strict adherence to the honor code and legal codes of his homelands. Cerilia is much smaller than his home continent, therefore to him its a staging ground for his empire. His character flaw is the mandate from the heavens to his original homeland.... I haven't really worked that out if he would abide by imperial decrees or if he follows his own interpretation of it being freed from imperial law by the banishment. However he would never expand into his homeland it is sacred to him.
As far as my pet's powers? Nope you don't get that sorry. That's all for me.
I just wanted my ideas and interpretations to be seen before you all decided on using the cookie cutter version of my favorite Awnsheghlien for the wiki.One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.
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10-03-2008, 08:58 PM #13
The assumption tends to follow from 'very powerful mage', 'undead', etc togeter with the current resurgence of the lost (the raven, el shaighul, etc) in the area. I tend to consider that the Magian is actually alive, and made lich-like by the awnsheghlien transformation rather than an undead who got a bloodline - it saves a lot of worries around the sidelines.
On hp, the brcs says you re-roll, and gain 1 hp if the re-roll is higher, that would lead to a trade-off as as hp increased the action became increasingly unlikely to have any effect - particularly for a spellcaster who probably fights from well to the rear. I'd make the magian go for 2/3 or so of max hp, the raven who is more martial go for 3/4 and only the Gorgon and similar bricks go for 90% or so.
Personally I always saw something of a Sauron clone in the set-up for the magian. Since the khinasi already had a big-bad-spellcaster (the serpent) the magian seemed a little redundant, so I tend to move the serpent more towards mad schemer with a tendency to get religious and swim around eating people with the magian then becoming the almost academic ice-cold genius scheming his way to victory (with the odd frankstein's monster and other warped experiment wandering around)- much like the white witch fiscally but with less set philosophy (aside from pragmatism).
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10-04-2008, 09:22 AM #14
Referring to Tolkien parallels: Both the Gorgon and Magian have attributes that embody Sauron in character and storyline.
The Gorgon is a titan in combat, fields gargantuan armies, fallen humans serving his cause, fallen line of kings of Anuire, Mhoried (Gondor), Imperial Chamberlain (Steward of Gondor), Imperial City (the White City), Halflings aid Michael Roele (Hobbits aid in restoring the King), and champion of Azrai (apprentice to Morgoth).
The Magian with the lich-like model, powerful magic, the riders (ring wraiths) and of course the phylactery the One Ring.One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.
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10-04-2008, 11:58 PM #15
I don't recall how many skill ranks Archmage has, but Wizard had only 2, so as someone who totally rates character power based on their skill set, it wouldn't be hard to devise a 12th level character who is more powerful (skill-wise) than a Wizard 20 or a Wizard 15/Archmage 5.
Given a good use of synergies, the 12th level character would be punching above his weight, more like 16th level, and would have more options, so the Magian might be able to impose some obstacles in two or three areas, where the 12th level character would have 70-80% of the ranks, but the 12th level character might also have two or three areas where the Magian would look like someone's apprentice.
Depending on how much a DM relied on skills vs other means (like spell) to answer the question, can this character do this, a Magian build might need to substitute four or five levels of wizard for something high skill that can support a wizard, like a player version of Expert, the Scholar class, or something on that level.
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10-05-2008, 01:40 AM #16
Well with the page on Wiki he has a 22 intellegence so we are talking about a 6 extra skills on top of his regular skills available. That is also a +6 on all intellegence based stats. With a few well placed feats he would be incredibly skillfull without the need of a supplement class.
I have also debated giving him some sort of artifact like a staff of Magi or something of that vein. Perhaps a powerful crown that boosted his intellegence even further. Haven't really decided yet.
I like the arch-mage senario, even just a couple of levels of it for a few of its abilities. I would most likely choose ...
1. Improved spell turning. If he successfully counter-spells another caster the spell is reflected back on them.
2. Change the damage type of the spell. Turn a fireball into a sonic ball or ice ball.
I would like to see what the wizards of Khanasi would think if they challenge him and he busts out those abilities.
-BB
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10-05-2008, 02:12 AM #17
A 12th level intelligence oriented character probably has an 18 INT (15 the best score from the standard array plus 3 attribute increases) So that's another a modifier of two less than the Magian. Still doesn't suggest the Magian has enough of an edge over a 12th level character in skills - again assuming skills really matter a lot.
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10-08-2008, 06:49 PM #18
I did take a look at this further. You certainly make a good point but there should be some updates to the Magian.
- First is the 22 intellegence. This is what is listed in the Blood Enemies book for 2nd edition. Back then there was a much more solid cap of 18 for ability scores so an NPC with 22 would certainly be intended to be much higher than everyone around him. In 3.5 would suspect that the number should be much higher. He has pretty good stats but perhaps just adding in 5 ability score increases (like he would have if he leveled and added a point every 4 levels). This could bump him up to 26 which is better.
- Second is the notion that level 20 character would be similer in skills as a level 12. While the level 12 character would have as many skill points, the Magian, even as is, would be much better in a fairly wide range of skills.
- Level 12 skillful character would have a max rank of 15. Given he has an 18 intellegence we would be looking at a skill check of 19.
- Level 20 Magian could have 8 seperate skills that have a max rank of 23 and intellenge based skill checked would be 29.
Now the question is .. are 8 different skills enough to be a good ruler. Lets just take administrate, concentration, diplomacy, knowledge Arcana (Int), Knowledge History (Int), Lead, Sense Motive, Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device, Warcraft (Int). Those are the 10 I would want to give him as skills.
I would just give him 6 of those skills maxed out and 4 at half.
Admin - 27 skill check
Concentration - 23 Skill check
Diplomacy - 25 Skill check
Knowledge Arcana - 29 Skill check
Knowledge History - 16 Skill check
Lead - 15 Skill check
Sense Motive - 14 Skill check
Spellcraft - 29 Skill check
Use Magic Device - 15 Skill check
Warcraft - 29 Skill check
I guess my point is even his low skills will proabably be close to a 12 level skillful character and his high skills would be far and away superior. Not to mention that skillful characters can't typically cast high level spells. There might be an obsucure Prestige class hiding out there I am not aware of.
I would just hate to take anything away from his spellcasting ability.
Sorry for the wall of text ... yet again.
-BB
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10-09-2008, 07:49 PM #19
The question BB, is how good is he at ruling all the holding types?
Diplomacy Province, guild 25
Warcraft Province, law 29
Leadership Law, temple 15
Know: arcana Source 29
Know: nature Source
Appraise Guild
Bluff Guild
Craft Guild
Gather intimidation Guild
Intimidate Guild
Profession Guild
Sense motive Guild 14
Know: religion Temple
He may maxes regency from province, law and source which is pretty good, but he is still totally reliant on 3P guilders and priests - he doesn't even have the skills to monitor them. I see him as an uber-alles type in desire to control so I'd at least try and give him some guild ability (enough not to be gulled) as he is focused on economic power as well as military power - I can see the Raven bankrupting his realm to win glory (and failing as a result), the Magian by contrast would balance his economy to maximise the output even if it meant waiting a few more years.
I'd note that with most of the competition topping out at L12, skills over 20 are overkill unless they reinforce the core character concept. So he could stick a few cp's into various skills to at least get basic awareness of them. Shouldn't warcraft be a cross-class skill by the way?
He does however end up having to be very specialised, while I can see him as a munchkin type with no skills outside of rulership and sorcery, particularly if he was not a ruler prior to coming to Cerilia, the level of optimisation is surprising. I'd expect lower diplomacy, leadership and warcraft unless he was a ruler elsewhere. If his int is dropped as he spends level ups on other areas - charisma for the rulership angle for example - then he really starts to suffer. That said, he is build as the arch-mage of the setting, so should probably stay specialised even if he suffers as a ruler from doing so.
I'd consider focusing him on sources and guilds, with a trusted lieutenant (Kas to his Vecna?) handling law and (nominally) province holdings. Apart from anything else, the more powerful looey's he needs, the more interesting his court and its inevitable internal machinations.
I'd also note that he needs 2-3 levels of an awnie class not just mage classes, while you can make it a spell caster awnie class to avoid losing that magical edge, something then has to give - either he gets weaknesses or loses out on feats, skills and saves.
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10-09-2008, 09:53 PM #20
Good point about cross-class. One or two of them might be and I didn't account for it.
As for guilds so far he hasn't shown any will to take control of guilds and lets them mostly do as they please ... other than once and a while when he raids their warehouses. I was thinking that might be one area he might be able to be exploited ... to a degree.
Also with religion is another one he has mostly stayed out of. He has the full support of the temple in the land and can certainly bully any regent in the land. Having a high diplomacy would help him with that. Some knowledge in religion might make some sense.
I had him super high on warcraft simply because of how good his military might is. It is said he uses his magic perfectly with his troops. If he plans on conquering his neighbors then his warcraft must be high.
I do agree that diplomacy could be lower. He has other people usually do the diplomacy and he assist when needed. I wouldn't lower it past 10.
I could accept that he is slightly lower in spellcasting to make up some difference ... but certainly no lower than 2-3 levels and I would probably give him a a powerful magical artifact to boost it back up. Staff of Magi or some artifact crown. As the book says he is simply the most powerful wizard in the land and no spell is beyond his grasp ... I like to keep it that way.
-BB
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