The mystery and wonder that is the Cerilian elf

[ConjurerDragon]

cccpxepoj schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3853
> cccpxepoj wrote:
> people just imagine the advance of elven army, traveling trough land,sky even a shadow world and all that followed whit thunder,lightning.......
> ok i need to rest
>
The sidhelien have lost and are a retreating race in a continent
formerly theirs.

IMO an army as you describe it is unfitting for the Birthright setting
after the human-sidhelien wars. Novels are not canon - but I do like the
novel "Greatheart" in that it describes the sidhelien of the Sielwode as
mourning every *single* dead sidhelien as an immortal gone forever.
Losing a dozen sidhelien is a major loss and even the thought of several
companies of sidhelien destroyed in a war would be unimaginable as would
a large army such as you describe. Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding
to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.

Or another picture that would fit Birthright: The last alliance of elves
and men of Gondor marching against Sauron - the whole army is as small
as former armys vanguards.

[AndrewTall]

The sidhelien have lost and are a retreating race in a continent
formerly theirs.

I do like the novel "Greatheart" in that it describes the sidhelien of the Sielwode as mourning every *single* dead sidhelien as an immortal gone forever.

For a race who lost - mostly prior to Deismaar, the sidhe are certainly taking their sweet time to die... A resurgence would be slow but is possible given the fractured nature of most of the opposition - Innishiere for example is likely to grow strongly following the absorption of Khinasi refugees as half elves become common place - and are welcomed by Cerilian elves unlike in many other settings.

But I strongly agree with the reluctance to lose troops, a human realm can absorb hundreds of dead without noticing, the Gorgon probably uses wars to cull the excess goblin population, the elves suffer for every casualty.

[ryancaveney]

For a race who lost - mostly prior to Deismaar, the sidhe are certainly taking their sweet time to die... A resurgence would be slow but is possible

Hence my opinion that most BR campaigns should include the beginning of that Sidhelien resurgence: they have bided their time long enough to build their power up to the point at which some of them think it comfortably exceeds that of all the other races, so the time has come to emerge from the forests and eradicate them all.

But I strongly agree with the reluctance to lose troops, a human realm can absorb hundreds of dead without noticing, the Gorgon probably uses wars to cull the excess goblin population, the elves suffer for every casualty.

Therefore, they should make extensive use of charmed, summoned and created troops. Charming (e.g., the Subversion realm spell) is particularly nice: steal some of your enemy's units and use them to fight the rest -- whether you win or lose the battle, every casualty on both sides works in your favor in the long run. Summoning elementals or creating golems is also very useful since those creatures tend to have good damage reduction, so can easily smash their way through very large numbers of normal soldiers.


Ryan

[Elton Robb]

Summoning elementals or creating golems is also very useful since those creatures tend to have good damage reduction, so can easily smash their way through very large numbers of normal soldiers.


Ryan

Not just any Elemental you know, Titanium Elementals!!!

[ryancaveney]

Not just any Elemental you know, Titanium Elementals!!!

I like Chlorine Elementals even better -- they're self-mobile Cloudkill spells! Sodium Elementals would cause impressive explosions, but they wouldn't last long. Plutonium Elementals even more so, and the radioactivity is a drag if you want to live there afterwards... =)


Ryan

[Beruin]

Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.

This is a bit nit-picky, but your example left me squirming.
Have you ever compared the American losses (58.226 soldiers dead or missing) with the Vietnamese losses (1 million Vietcong and NVA fighters, plus 4 million civilians according to Vietnamese sources)? You just can't say that guerilla warfare attempts to prevent unneccessary loss of life. You'll come to similar results when you look at the German army against the Russian partisans in WWII, the Russians in Afghanistan or, more recently, in Chechenia, or when you consider the present situation in Iraq.

Guerilla warfare in our world is always the weapon of the underdog, who has no other way to strike back. Moreover, it is waged on the back of the civilian population, leading to a very high body count and it also nearly always requires a territory already occupied.

That said, the Elves in Cerilia will surely employ hit-and-run tactics, they might also prefer to fight on home territory, and they will turn the very forest against any invader, and they will not fight very chivalrous against human vermin. I guess that is what you mean by 'guerilla warfare' and so far I agree. However, I'd also say that they will fight tooth and nail and to the last elf before they'll allow an enemy to come near to one of their cities.

[ConjurerDragon]

Beruin schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3853
> Beruin wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
> This is a bit nit-picky, but your example left me squirming.
> Have you ever compared the American losses (58.226 soldiers dead or missing) with the Vietnamese losses (1 million Vietcong and NVA fighters, plus 4 million civilians according to Vietnamese sources)? You just can`t say that guerilla warfare attempts to prevent unneccessary loss of life. You`ll come to similar results when you look at the German army against the Russian partisans in WWII, the Russians in Afghanistan or, more recently, in Chechenia, or when you consider the present situation in Iraq.
>
> Guerilla warfare in our world is always the weapon of the underdog, who has no other way to strike back. Moreover, it is waged on the back of the civilian population, leading to a very high body count and it also nearly always requires a territory already occupied.
>
> That said, the Elves in Cerilia will surely employ hit-and-run tactics, they might also prefer to fight on home territory, and they will turn the very forest against any invader, and they will not fight very chivalrous against human vermin. I guess that is what you mean by `guerilla warfare` and so far I agree. However, I`d also say that they will fight tooth and nail and to the last elf before they`ll allow an enemy to come near to one of their cities.
>

When comparing then don?t count only the soldiers of the USA on one
side. South Vietnam had casualties as well. When you compare the overall
casualties and leave the american air raids and bombings out of the
comparison then it?s more what I wanted to show. Vietcong tactics used
by the sidhelien - while the human and goblin opponents have no airforce
available.
Or perhaps a comparison less likely to bring up images of modern wars:
"Robin Hood"?s methods employed by the sidhelien against humanities Guy
of Gisborne.

[cccpxepoj]

Or perhaps a comparison less likely to bring up images of modern wars: "Robin Hood"?s methods employed by the sidhelien against humanities Guy of Gisborne.

There is no "robin hood" tactics for elves, to have efficient "robin hood" tactic you have to have local population on your side, and that way they will never expand their borders. That tactic work only in the state of occupation by the foreign power( humans,humanoids,dwarfs,other elves more likely) .

[irdeggman]

There is no "robin hood" tactics for elves, to have efficient "robin hood" tactic you have to have local population on your side, and that way they will never expand their borders. That tactic work only in the state of occupation by the foreign power( humans,humanoids,dwarfs,other elves more likely) .

Actually the comparison seems pretty decent.

The elves do have local population on their side (the elves within the forests).

The humans are trying to insert their influence (ala Gisborne) and are being met with stinging tactics.

Elves have pretty much not been able to expand their borders - they have at best been able to keep the "infringement" from outsiders to a minimum in the centuries since the elf-human wars.

[ryancaveney]

the (Robin Hood) comparison seems pretty decent.

Not to me. Robin Hood is about resisting the depredations of an occupying power. I don't think any human army in "present-day" Cerilia could possibly occupy a Sidhelien province for long enough to make a guerrilla-type resistance movement necessary. I see the response as far more overwhelming than merely "stinging." In my view, five minutes after the "humans have crossed the border!" alarm rings in the capital, several high-level wizards appear, and unleash enough magic (including charming some of the humans, summoning monsters and animating the trees) in a matter of minutes that the human force of thousands is retreating in disorder or utterly obliterated less than half a hour after their incursion began. I see attempting to invade the Sidhelien forests as more akin to walking slowly across no man's land in 1916 -- in broad daylight, into the teeth of the machine guns and artillery barrages -- than anything else.


Ryan