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  1. #21
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    The other awnsheghlien are just speedbumps to the big guys; only the Gorgon and the Serpent are even worth considering -- but Gorgy is already surrounded by elves who could crush him if he bothered them.
    As I was devising my plan, I wondered about the dwarves. I left them out because the dwarves are too friendly with the humans to get involved in the sidhe plan to conquer/exterminate them. But not so the abominations. The Gorgon especially is not only surrounded by elves, but also by dwarves, and if the plan to eliminate the Gorgon started early enough, the dwarves would be willing to participate. No one constitutes a threat to the dwarves like the Gorgon does. He raises orog armies, he dominates one dwarven realm already, and menaces two others seriously.

    The dwarves would go into it as part of a grand campaign of humans, elves, and dwarves against the Gorgon, suspicious of both the humans and elves, but determined that this is a thing that must be done and willing to participate. The Gorgon's crown once cleared of abomination(s) would not interest the elves, and the dwarves might very well consider this place someplace to "recover" just as much as the elves look at the much larger expance of Cerilia.

    However, at some point I think the dwarves would recoil from the sidhe plot and return to their mountains confident that their suspicions were always justified and no one can be trusted but a dwarf. Of course they won't regret their role in the destruction of the Gorgon (or the Chimera), as these were neccesary acts, even if they had to cooperate with the genocidal elves.

  2. #22
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    I've moved these posts because the thread topic is now a completely seperate one to Magicians' spell lists!

  3. #23
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Now that actually fits canon very well - after Deismaar we are told the gods agreed not to interefere directly (Eloele cheats I think), indicating that they did so before Deismaar - possibly quite often (although that would suggest half-breeds should have been prevalent).

    There is a much more significant "cheater".

    Rournil and his relationship with Suris Enlien and the founding of Meodoere.

    I found the text that I was thinking of that talks about what the pact "really" said. I think this is the only actual text that mentions the "pact of the new gods". If someone finds something more, please point it out.

    BR Campaign Setting pg 73

    “Despite these rifts, all the gods of the new pantheon have held fast to one firm pact: Never again shall the gods battle each other in physical form.


    Duane Eggert

  4. #24
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    Ryancaveney I am glad that some of the community tries to go backward in BR lore, and devise stories to fill all those gaps and blurry areas...

    Your "prehistoric" Cerilia is similar to what I used in my campaign; old gods being powerful dragons, and dwarves being created by dragons, major difference is that in my campaign dragons didn't arrived from another planet/dimension, etc.
    Dragons were the primal elemental creatures that were the "builders" of the world. According the Sidhe legends about the "old world" when shadow world and daylight where one, gods were created and they sought to establish order within the world and bind it by laws (so they could control it and rule it), except the Azrai who preferred the ever-changing and utterly unpredictable chaos (from AD&D BR: Blood Spawn). In my campaign these true dragons were Anduiras, Reynir, Brenna, Basaia, Vorynn, Azrai, and Moradin (I tend to ignore most of that planar Muppet show which was used mostly to bring all CS together so one CS fan could waste money on other and still remain “faithful” to their preffered CS ^^.
    Sie (they were mentioned in AD&D BR: Blood Spawn) were spirits, first intelligent creatures in the world, like a sentient manifestation of Gaea, they didn't possessed individual thought back then, nor permanent material form. True Dragons created Giants to help them shape the world, but Azrai wanted the world to remain in its original pure chaos, so he created his "working" force to counter his brothers (or to remedy their doing since he was not evil), so he created Dragons (present day cerilian dragons).
    Azrai never forgave his brothers for the, by his opinion, destroying of the world, and hurting him because since all "gods" were bound to some of the aspects of the world (portfolios), this sundering almost destroyed him since he was bound by the very chaos they sought to banish. He channelled all of his strength and power into preserving the world as it was, and in the shaping of the world, he tried to counter his kin but failed again and again for other "gods" were equally powerful and he couldn't stand against their combined might. So he decided to work with them in the shaping of the new world, but secretly he started preparing his plan, using dragons, secret chaos nods, to weaken the shaping and create enough energy to preserve the original world and himself. Many of the Sie joined Azrai in this secret mission. When final Shaping took the place, Azrai and his allies used all his resources and power to create enough energy to shelter the old world, but it was still not enough, and tremendous energies ripped his essence almost destroying him utterly, but enabling him to turn this energy into enough power to preserve the original flow. After splitting the world on Shadow World and Daylight, Sie split on Seelie and Sidhe and awakened their individualities, and since Sidhe remained in the Daylight, that was stable and material, they gained premanent physical form. Old gods seeing that they almost destroyed one of their own, their brother, they felt so sad and ashamed, that they used their own essence to restore him, and they helped him find his place in the new world among them as equal. As Azrai regained his power he regained his memories of their betrayal and his pain, and his grief for the lost world, for he didn’t knew then that his “sacrifice” in the end managed to preserve the old flow. But soon he begun to feel faint echoes of the original flow, his link with the preserved domain of chaos started to awaken, so while he ruled the new world with his kin, he ruled the old chaos domain alone and his power grew unchallenged for his brothers were not aware of its existence. That’s why Azrai grew to become the most powerful of the “gods” and even their combined might couldn’t stand against him in the end. He turned against them out of revenge, and because since they created the new world, their destruction would help him to restore the world as it was in the beginning, to merge both worlds back. So he started weakening the creation by manipulating the world against the other "gods" and spawning "evil" creatures like goblins, gnolls, orogs, etc. Well what happened afterwards is more or less evident for the present scholars ^^;

    Heh, this is the shortest version I can come up with about the world’s creation and gods… I know it is not the cannon, but I was especially careful to incorporate all BR lore I am aware of ^^;

    PS: I know its off topic, plz don't hold it against me, I just couldn't resist it...
    Last edited by ShadowMoon; 06-14-2007 at 03:42 PM.
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  5. #25
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    I think that a generic mythology/magic/anthropophobia thread is very hard to track off track!

  6. #26
    Senior Member Elton Robb's Avatar
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    Yes. That's true. I was trying to figure out the reason for them doing that, and apparently, that's because Yin and Yang had to be satisfied at the battle of Mount Deismaar.

    In my Birthright, the original Gods are Eternal Beings. Meaning that they cannot be destroyed, but they can change from one 'form' to another. When they divested Azrai, they had to divest themselves as well. They all changed Azrai from a God with a physical body to one with a Spirit Body. And in so doing, they also changed themselves.

    But because Justice had to be satisfied, the Gods exalted Haelyn and Company to be Gods over their sphere. The only difference is: Andurias, Masela, Basaia, Brenna, Reynir, and Vorynn are going through the cycle of Mortality again. Azrai, however, is cut off and so banished to exist the rest of his days as a spirit. His eventual fate is one of Darkness.

    So, Azrai wanders the world as an accusing spirit; both in the Shadow World and on Cerilia. He's the Cold Rider: although he isn't allowed to kill. He can do things subtly. So therefore, as the Cold Rider he is very much the symbol of very bad luck.

    As for Magic itself, that's different. The reason why the others were exalted in their place is because of Balance. To maintain the Balance after the Gods divested themselves of their Godhood, they had to elevate the New Gods. Haelyn, Avani, Erik, Ruornil, Sera, Kreisha, Belinik, and Nesirie were exalted to take the place of Andurias, Basaia, Reynir, Vorynn, Brenna, Azrai, and Masela in order to preserve the Balance.

    According to Elven Mysticism, when Cerilian Dragons and Elves die, they are reborn as stars (this is stated in Greatheart). So, in my BR, it wasn't Dragons that took the form of Gods or were worshipped as Gods. Or during the Battle, the Manslayer didn't slay Azrai. The other Gods just divested him of his body and powers; and in so doing also divested themselves. So, Azrai is very powerless and cannot be reborn, so he wanders Aebyrnis as the Cold Rider and an Accuser of man's deeds.
    Last edited by Elton Robb; 06-14-2007 at 12:15 PM.
    Regent of Medoere

  7. #27
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    I just made a quick review of PS Medoere, and nothing there could be taken as serious breach of the gods agreement.

    Sure Ruornil guided Brun Szareh, sure Ruornil's avatar manifested before Suris Enlien, sure divine power helped in battle at Tieren Pass, but visions could occur to the faithful, there are even spells for that, avatars were explained in BR rulebook, and while cerilian gods are loath to interfere in mortal doings it is said that they can manifest on the world, and who can say that this "avatar" was not part of the vision/communion. And finally divine intervention at the Tieren Pass, could be well described as a Divine Realm Spell. So I see no breaking of the Gods agreement not to interfere directly.

    ...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  8. #28
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    According to Elven Mysticism, when Cerilian Dragons and Elves die, they are reborn as stars (this is stated in Greatheart). So, in my BR, it wasn't Dragons that took the form of Gods or were worshipped as Gods. Or during the Battle, the Manslayer didn't slay Azrai. The other Gods just divested him of his body and powers; and in so doing also divested themselves. So, Azrai is very powerless and cannot be reborn, so he wanders Aebyrnis as the Cold Rider and an Accuser of man's deeds.
    nice ! it gives the world that dark medieval Christian flavor even more .

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMoon View Post
    So I see no breaking of the Gods agreement not to interfere directly.

    ...
    Looking back over the material (as I qouted earlier), I don' t think this was the "pact". I think it is a commone interpretation that all of us have maintained over the years, but not what the text actually said.

    It looks like all they said was to no longer take physical form to battle each other.

    So this makes things a lot different, IMO.

    I still don't like the idea of the gods leading the troops against the elves in physical form - it detracts from the epic feel of what happened at Deismaar to me. I say thiis because you would have had everyone of the original deities participating (except for Azrai - who had not chosen people).


    Sort of a mini-Deismaar if you will.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    I say thiis because you would have had everyone of the original deities participating (except for Azrai - who had not chosen people).
    He may not have had any chosen humans, but what about the goblins, gnolls, orogs and other beastmen? Another idea that a number of people have suggested is that Azrai *did* have his own tribe of humans (perhaps the "decadent southern empires"), but they stayed in Aduria and Cerilian humans don't like to think about them. The Magian is sometimes said to be one of their descendants.

    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    I still don't like the idea of the gods leading the troops against the elves in physical form - it detracts from the epic feel of what happened at Deismaar to me. Sort of a mini-Deismaar if you will.
    That's part of why I like it. I prefer to see Deismaar as the last and greatest of these battles, the climax and culmination of thousands of years of intermittent struggle, rather than something that just happened suddenly out of the blue.


    Ryan

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