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  1. #11
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    I've never liked this approach. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, they're dabblers, and they have other things to do, but they have *thousands* of years to dabble, and magic is as natural to them as breathing -- there is nothing they'd be more apt to continue playing around with for sheer amusement than magic. Therefore, I think elves with at least a dozen caster levels ought to be as common as the village blacksmith is for humans.
    Ryan
    Hmmm, that depends how easily you level up, and whether you take the view that memories and therefore class levels fade, of course given the right stimulation for long enough the elf who has dozed away a millennia might remember the days they fought the goblin hordes single-handed...

    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    I think they had enough experience with the dragons to learn the lesson well. (As a side note, in my view the dragons were once much more numerous, until they basically wiped each other out in their struggle for power.) I also think the elves started fighting the humans before they started dealing with Azrai.
    Ryan
    Well, I don't see the dragons as schemers much either, armour plated fire-breathing engines of destruction not needing to do much scheming when dealing with the lesser races, and not deigning to inform the lessers of the dragons schemes against each other...

    And the 1-2 centuries of experience with humans wouldn't count for much in my view - not when you have 10-20 millennia of experience of 'evil tree killing thugs = dim and incapble of concerted action' stuck in your mind, it could easily take centuries for the old ways to be forsaken and the elves to take on new tactics wholesale - about the time it took to turn the tides in the years between the original waves of immigration and Deismaar...

    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    To an elf, there isn't much difference in intelligence between a human and a goblin. =)
    Ryan
    So why learn to make deep plots to foil them? Only after the elves see how the humans work together and create elabourate civilisations, and still breed like rabbits should they truly being learning to out-scheme them...

    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    I give them enough credit to have known from the beginning that no attempt to live in peace with a victorious Azrai was ever going to work out well for them.
    Ryan
    Hmm Azrai was the subtle god - he would be quite capable of appearing to the elves as a forest spirit intent on turning the humans against each other, or as an elf showing the 'weaknesses' of the hmuans so that the elves could defeat them... Why have them know he is one of the human gods? It only harms his cause...

  2. #12
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Maybe the greatest error here is outlook; I mean, even in overpowering, ancient, powerful elven kingdoms of other settings, the average levels for all NPCs ARE NOT AFFECTED by the race of the settlement; furthermore, few Sidhelien are actually much older than most other settings' elves - most powerful people are the stuff of legend even - especially - in Birthright...

  3. #13
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Without an outlook, the DM can't build a setting. The outlook has to belong to the the DM. Hence it cannot be in error. Divergent from canon, or conventional setting interpretation, sure, but not in error.

  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Without an outlook, the DM can't build a setting. The outlook has to belong to the the DM. Hence it cannot be in error. Divergent from canon, or conventional setting interpretation, sure, but not in error.

    Quoted For Truth
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    even in overpowering, ancient, powerful elven kingdoms of other settings, the average levels for all NPCs ARE NOT AFFECTED by the race of the settlement
    Now that's just silly. It does not make any sense at all, so it is a serious design flaw. I admit it is a willful flaw, done in intentional denial of the elven dominance which is a natural consequence of their lifespan and magical aptitude, but it is a flaw nonetheless, because it requires the setting to be ridiculously illogical and inconsistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    furthermore, few Sidhelien are actually much older than most other settings' elves
    I don't believe that, either. The typical elven realm in Cerilia is ruled by the successor of the person who ruled at Deismaar. I think the average age of elves in Cerilia is over a thousand years.


    Ryan

  6. #16
    Senior Member Elton Robb's Avatar
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    Hmm. This has gone off topic.

    Anyway, to keep with the Elf theme. IMC, the elves are biding their time. Even though the Anuirean Empire is in ruins and they have many perfect opportunities to strike; Roubhe and the Gorgon seem to balance them out in Anuire.

    And there are two other Awnsheghlien they are worried about: the Expansionists who are the Raven and the Magian. If the Gorgon, Rhoubhe, the Magian, and the Raven were out of the way, they could quietly expand and retake Cerilia by creating a Hegemonic Dictatorship (Join us or die; or We Expand or Die).

    So, really, Kenneth Guack's Elvish Plan leaves out the Magian. The Magian has the tactical, realm spell advantage. As a 20th level Awnshegh Lich, he knows all the Realm Spells there is to know on the Arcane Side. The Magian can let loose plagues, the forces of nature, summon undead units (possibly from the Shadow World), misdirect attacking forces, and cause mighty battle magic.

    He can annihilate the armies of Rhaunnach and Cwm Bein using Realm Magic. Then he and his undead forces can just walk right over the Elvish Realms. After cowing the Elves into submission, of course.

    The Magey then would expand through Khinasi and Vosgaard; using his mighty magic to cow the Vos and the Khinasi. He may even use the Raven in his expansionistic plan. So, your Elvish plan isn't totally infalliable. There are too many variables to account with. The Magian being one example of these. And there is always a chance that their agents might betray them for the good of Anuire or Khinasi. But if you really want to do a really good plan of Elvish subversion, read GURPS Illuminati.

    No doubt Illuminati exists in the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Setting. Groups planning not to take over just Cerilia, but the rest of Aebyrnis.
    Regent of Medoere

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Hmmm, that depends how easily you level up, and whether you take the view that memories and therefore class levels fade
    That's literally the only reason I don't think *most* Sidhelien have at least a dozen caster levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    of course given the right stimulation for long enough the elf who has dozed away a millennia might remember the days they fought the goblin hordes single-handed
    Given the right stimulation, I think the Sidhelien could field a hundred thousand double-digit-level wizards in a month, against whom nothing could stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Well, I don't see the dragons as schemers much either, armour plated fire-breathing engines of destruction not needing to do much scheming when dealing with the lesser races, and not deigning to inform the lessers of the dragons schemes against each other.
    I see them as schemers on a truly vast scale. Their description says, "The dragons of Cerilia are an ancient race, predating even elves and dwarves. They once existed in great numbers, but now only a handful live." The reason for that is IMO given a few paragraphs later: "they warred incessantly among themselves." As part of that incessant warfare, I think they *created* most of the intelligent races on the planet, or at least uplifted them (in the David Brin sense) from normal animals. They did this, in part, as a kind of *experimental sociology*, creating thinking species with a variety of different characteristics, to see what kinds of different social organizations would emerge and how they would interact.

    More on this in a separate post, since the original version of this one was too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    And the 1-2 centuries of experience with humans wouldn't count for much in my view - not when you have 10-20 millennia of experience of 'evil tree killing thugs = dim and incapble of concerted action' stuck in your mind, it could easily take centuries for the old ways to be forsaken and the elves to take on new tactics wholesale - about the time it took to turn the tides in the years between the original waves of immigration and Deismaar...
    Where do you get dim and incapable? Cerilian goblins are rated "Intelligence: Low to High (8-14)", which is really no different than humans; actually, since the range shown averages to 12, they may even be *more* intelligent than humans, but I won't swear to that because I can't presently find my copy of the 2e Monstrous Manual -- can anyone help out? Furthermore, I think Thurazor is as civilized a realm as Alamie, and the capital of Kal-Kalathor has a higher level than any province on the continent save the Imperial City. I think before Deismaar the goblins were distinctly more civilized than the humans (due to, among other things, long exposure to elven rule), and at present they still compare favorably to a number of human realms.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    So why learn to make deep plots to foil them? Only after the elves see how the humans work together and create elabourate civilisations, and still breed like rabbits should they truly being learning to out-scheme them...
    And I maintain it is the dragons they learned to out-scheme, and that standard was so high that they are now well past the ability of any other species to thwart effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Hmm Azrai was the subtle god - he would be quite capable of appearing to the elves as a forest spirit intent on turning the humans against each other, or as an elf showing the 'weaknesses' of the hmuans so that the elves could defeat them... Why have them know he is one of the human gods? It only harms his cause...
    I think they're even more subtle than he was. I think they noticed he was approaching the goblins, gnolls and Vos, and then they opened the way for him to come to them, thinking he was corrupting them when in fact they were suckering him into a deal he'd have realized was too good to be true, had they offered it to him openly. =)


    Ryan

  8. #18
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    My view of Cerilian ancient history

    In my own view of the prehistory of Aebrynis, the Sidhelien -- as elemental nature spirits -- have existed as long as life itself. However, they never bothered to take physical form until about fifty thousand years ago, when the dragons arrived from another planet. They were fleeing an interstellar war with some of the other powerful, magical races (illithids and neogi, particularly), and sought an (apparently) uninhabited planet as a refuge. Many of the Sidhelien, curious about the new arrivals, embodied themselves in forms familiar to the dragons as allies (elves and giants from some other D&D world) to interact with them; the others retreated into the wilderness or left for the elemental planes.

    Fearing pursuit, one of the first things the dragons did was to create a servitor race whose members would be loyal, good fighters, servants and craftsmen, live in natural fortifications and be highly resistant to magic and damage: in other words, the dwarves. The reason dwarves are "twice as dense as other creatures" with skin that is "gray, stony, and cold to the touch", take only half damage from blunt impact and "can carry amazing burdens" is that the elves, curious to see what would happen, helped the dragons mold the Awakened minds of fierce burrowing animals into animated stone bodies and made it possible for them to breed normally.

    The dragons were delighted with their new creations, but the Sidhelien were not happy with the slavery the dragons forced upon the dwarves, even though the dwarves had been specifically engineered not to mind very much. Therefore, when after a few thousand years the feared invasion did not materialize, and the dragons got bored and started playing with uplifting other races, the elves refused to help, and kicked them off of the continent of first contact (Cerilia) while freeing the dwarves to stay behind in their beloved mountains. The dragons went mainly to Aduria, where over the next several millennia they gradually created goblins, gnolls, orogs, humans, and any other wierd D&D sentient-monster race you've ever felt like putting somewhere on Aebrynis (I favor yuan-ti, kenku, wemics, firenewts and thri-kreen), who get lumped into the general category of "beast-men". Why did the dragons bother? In order to have subjects to command and be worshipped by, and use as armies to fight the other dragons (as the threat of external invasion faded from memory, all the old internecine struggles reappeared with a vengeance). This much of the truth is old enough that even the Sidhelien don't remember it anymore -- all the ones currently awake on-planet are the great-grandchildren and later descendants of the original spirits, but somewhere there are a few sleepers who might be awakenable by a sufficiently epic quest.

    Note well "be worshipped by." I think that Anduiras, Azrai and the rest were nothing more than seven of the most powerful dragons. I think Deismaar was the climactic battle of the last great war between these and other dragons, using their pet human and humanoid tribes as pawns. The "gods" the humans saw take form were these dragons, each a far more accomplished wizard than any dragon currently living, who had spent centuries convincing the gullible humans that they were the beings the primitive tribesmen worshipped. This was particularly easy given that humans had never seen magic before, and the dragons taught it to some of their favorites to spread and cement their influence -- this is the original source of all non-Sidhelien (i.e., priest and wizard) magic. What the ancient humans who served with the dragons' armies that day actually saw were the dragons in the forms they had learned the humans would expect; the one playing Azrai had a particularly easy time, as what shepherd could honestly say that a winged serpent 750 feet long, casting spells that wiped out whole regiments in the blink of an eye, was not a god? All told, there were about a hundred dragons in the battle on each side; "Anduiras" and friends were a loose coalition formed to oppose "Azrai"'s ever-growing thirst for control, while their opponents were the rulers of "the decadent southern empires" described in the humans' oldest myths. The Adurian dragons mostly fought in their natural forms, since the god they claimed to represent was the lord of serpents, but their opponents used human seemings (gigantic ones, for the six famous names) during the battle to avoid further spooking their troops or drawing friendly fire.

    The dragons' human servants on both sides now had a problem: the mundanes had seen their gods *die*. Luckily, they had been fighting each other at the time, and the destruction was vast enough that the dazed and wounded surviving normals never figured out that *all* the gods were polymorphed dragons. The mages who had been the dragons' agents inside the various human priesthoods recognized the utility of their former masters' method of religious rule, and found a way to preserve their own power: they managed to convince the thunderstruck tribesmen that some of their most beloved chieftains had been elevated to godhood in the cataclysm, and that those chieftains wanted their people to continue to follow them in preference to mortal rulers. Without their patrons to back them up, this was a difficult pretense to maintain, but among the Rjurik and Vos it worked well enough to take permanent hold; theocracy faded among the other human cultures, but religion at large remained strong. The elves all know the truth of it, but almost no humans believe them, and none who do is foolish enough to say so in public and be stoned to death for heresy.

    I freely admit this is highly idiosyncratic, but since I have taken pains not to violate anything presented as a rule (indeed, I've worked hard to *justify* the some of the rules by adding appropriate metaphysics), but only the Atlas, which is clearly in-character text and is generally considered to contain many inaccuracies and distortions, I claim that my view is just as consistent with the Birthright boxed set as anyone else's. I actually wrote almost all of the above in 1997, within a few months of opening the boxed set, about a year before joining this mailing list. I don't talk about it much around here, though, because it is so far from the mainstream that I want to keep its wierdness from influencing people's reactions to my comments about more conventional topics. The fact that it has inspired some of my favorite ideas I've ever had (some of which are reproduced above) is one of the things that keeps me so interested in Cerilia after so long.


    Ryan

  9. #19
    Senior Member Elton Robb's Avatar
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    It's your version of Birthright. No body should judge you for being wrong. All of us interpret the Events at Mount Diesmaar in different ways, Ryan. Including myself. If you think you are far out in Left Field, wait until you hear my explanation as to what happened.

    Regent of Medoere

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    Hmm. This has gone off topic.
    As is the nature of all good threads. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    Anyway, to keep with the Elf theme. IMC, the elves are biding their time. Even though the Anuirean Empire is in ruins and they have many perfect opportunities to strike; Roubhe and the Gorgon seem to balance them out in Anuire.
    Why do you think Rhoubhe Manslayer would want to oppose elven hegemony? I think he'd be eager to help achieve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    So, really, Kenneth Gauck's Elvish Plan leaves out the Magian.
    Actually, he has shared only the part concentrated on Anuire. There should clearly be similar plans for all the other regions; he just hasn't posted them yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    As a 20th level Awnshegh Lich, he knows all the Realm Spells there is to know on the Arcane Side. The Magian can let loose plagues, the forces of nature, summon undead units (possibly from the Shadow World), misdirect attacking forces, and cause mighty battle magic.
    With this I agree completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    He can annihilate the armies of Rhaunnach and Cwm Bein using Realm Magic. Then he and his undead forces can just walk right over the Elvish Realms. After cowing the Elves into submission, of course.
    With this, however, I disagree completely. I think the elves can match him in magic might. Even if he is individually more powerful than any of them (and that I doubt), there are so many more of them than him, and caster level is so unimportant to realm magic anyway, that the elves working together could quite readily hold him off. Therefore, since he would know that too, he would not move against them until his realm was much, much stronger. In fact, I think he (and the Raven) chose the location of his realm where he did precisely in order to be as far away from Rhoubhe, Siebharrin and Llaeddra as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    The Magey then would expand through Khinasi and Vosgaard; using his mighty magic to cow the Vos and the Khinasi. He may even use the Raven in his expansionistic plan.
    I long ago convinced myself that el-Sirad and el-Sheighul are two of his Riders in disguise, and so is one of the unnamed Red Kings of Aftane. I'm still not yet sure whether the Raven is also, or whether he was supposed to do what the Magian is working on, but messed it up, so the Magian was sent to replace him. Both of them, IMO, have come from the Shadow World as agents of the Cold Rider to conquer it for her (I'll have to post some of my wild theories about her, too, I think...). If the Raven isn't one of the Magian's Riders, then he's just having fun on the other side of the Evanescence from his boss, and will be in deep trouble if she wins. The Magian wants the Cold Rider's help in taking out the elves, but also wants to arrange it so that when that happens, he can close the Evanescence against her forever, and rule this side of Aebrynis without a superior he has to obey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    So, your Elvish plan isn't totally infalliable. There are too many variables to account with. The Magian being one example of these.
    As I see it, he (and his boss, the Cold Rider, whose daily struggle is in the Shadow World against Rhuobhe) is the *only* threat to the elvish plan. No one else can really get strong enough to matter. The human, goblin, and other petty mortal rulers exist only as long as one of the two main power players think they might be useful in the one real contest of strength. The other awnsheghlien are just speedbumps to the big guys; only the Gorgon and the Serpent are even worth considering -- but Gorgy is already surrounded by elves who could crush him if he bothered them, and the Serpent will always be outmatched by the Magian. Actually, I could see the Sidhelien talking the Gorgon into working for them for a while, just like they did his old boss, Azrai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    And there is always a chance that their agents might betray them for the good of Anuire or Khinasi.
    Ah, that's the beauty of really high-level charm magic and really entertaining lifestyles. I don't think they can, nor at this point do they even want to. They have been so thoroughly brainwashed that they think delivering the humans into the waiting hands of the elves *is* the highest good they can bring to Anuire or Khinasi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Robb View Post
    No doubt Illuminati exists in the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Setting. Groups planning not to take over just Cerilia, but the rest of Aebyrnis.
    Well, clearly, IMO, the Sidhelien and the Magian are the major ones. Other groups with that goal are either merely pawns of one of the two real powers, or foolish humans who have absolutely no idea just how deep the rabbit hole goes and just how utterly doomed their feeble plans are.


    Ryan
    Last edited by ryancaveney; 06-14-2007 at 01:21 PM. Reason: oops! I messed up one of the most important words

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