Conversion - What about the Gorgon?

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:17 PM


> Sir Justine wrote:
> hum... what`s "AFAIC" :P ?

As Far As I Am Concerned

> Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
> a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
> your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some
> way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.

I don`t think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all
the An bloodlines in Cerilia, I`d then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
20,000 +.

Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
> > a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
> > your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some
> > way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.
>
> I don`t think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all
> the An bloodlines in Cerilia, I`d then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
> effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
> entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
> myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
> Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
> What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
> third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
> lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
> would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
> a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
> 5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
> 20,000 +.
>
> Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. ;-)

I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+, was
sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[marcum uth mather]

all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

[Sir Justine]

One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars aren't as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It's was really possible to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff...).
I mean, all the scale of power is smaller in Birthright, from the npcs to the gods.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 5:35 PM

> I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+, was
> sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
> the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
> al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

How seriously you take that line depends on several things.
1) How do you regard the idea that gods are just the highest level
characters in the milieu?
2)How do you regard assention to godhood.

From my point of view, gods aren`t just really high level characters any
more than I am a very powerful mouse. I view gods as being much closer to
omnipotance than D&D normally does.

marcum uth mather wrote:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level,
> AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more
> scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take
> his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that
> devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my
> carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

Too many readings of the Odyssey prevent me from believeing that Odysseus
was ever going be able to defeat Posideon in any combat. Even the heros of
the golden age, sons of Apollo, Zeus, and other gods, never could have
displaced one of the Olympians. The best they could hope for was that mommy
or daddy would get them turned into a constellation or made into an immortal
(not neccesarily a god, just an immortal who could hang out with the gods).
Herakles was made immortal, what divine actions did he go on to take? How
is this any difference from the hero worship of the dark ages where someone
as mundane as Orestes was venerated?

Sir Justine wrote:
> One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars
> aren`t as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater
> gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate
> 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It`s was really possible
> to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance
> avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff...).

But what is an avatar? What does it mean to defeat an avatar? Do gods have
meaningful stats? I don`t think so. Take strength. Doesn`t every god have
the capacity to topple a castle? Some may appear to push it over Samson
style, others will cast bolts from their outstretched hands, still others
will smath the ground with their staff, then the castle falls over. Its a
matter of style not power. Give the us the style information, and we don`t
need stats. Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Daniel McSorley:
> I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+,
> was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+
> bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

Personally, I think that this is silly.

Sorry, I don`t really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I
just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and he`d then
use that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol` Stonebutt
isn`t exactly stupid afterall.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
<snip!>
> Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Testify brother!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

marcum uth mather:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th
> level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a
> few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a
> demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god
> and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at
> least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were
> near ANY of this level;)

It is astounding that I can have a view about this that is so different
from your own.

I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t
do it themselves.

To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[geeman]

At 06:56 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>Daniel McSorley:
> > I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+,
> > was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> > single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> > him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+
> > bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.
>
>Personally, I think that this is silly.
>
>Sorry, I don`t really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I
>just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and he`d then use
>that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol` Stonebutt isn`t
>exactly stupid afterall.

I don`t recall it saying anywhere that the Gorgon`s bloodline was
sufficient for him to become a deity. In fact, I seem to recall the
opposite. A couple of points:

1. We don`t know that the Gorgon`s bloodline was in the triple digits after
Deismaar. In fact, it probably wasn`t. Other true bloodlines are lower
than his, and in certain cases (most notably the Serpent) even those
characters have made strides towards a divine status.

2. A bloodline of 100+ is a good place to start in a bid towards
transcendence. After all, the same energies that made the human inheritors
of the gods` divine power is what created bloodlines. It`s the same stuff,
so wouldn`t rising one`s bloodline be a way to achieve godhood? A
bloodline of 100+ seems like a good starting point for certain characters
who are trying to ascend.

3. A 100+ bloodline, however, should not be the only requirement for
transcendence. First of all, the Gorgon is around as powerful as a few
other D&D characters (Iuz, Elminister) who are described variously as
demi-gods or rivalling that sort of power, so character levels aren`t
really a problem for him, but that should be some sort of requirement for a
mortal.

4. The humans who became gods at Deismaar took on the exact same aspects of
the gods that perished, so they didn`t have any need to find a
role/niche/portfolio or whatever. Any human who transcends is going to
have to define his/er place in the pantheon. The Gorgon hasn`t really done
this (neither has the Serpent) though various interpretations could apply.

5. Tasks. There has to be a series of specific and epic tasks on the path
to divinity. I`ve always liked the idea that Raesene`s task was to sit on
the Iron Throne.

In reference to the Gorgon transcending if he could and then using that
power to lay waste to his enemies, I don`t think that really adds up for
several reasons.

First, the process of transcending for the Gorgon would itself probably
represent laying waste to his enemies. If he`s still got enough enemies
running around by the time he transcends then the process probably wasn`t
as epic as all that.

Second, if the Gorgon could transcend and THEN decided to lay waste to
Cerilia that`s the kind of thing that brought the gods together in alliance
against Azrai. That would make a pretty interesting epic level campaign
hook, but if the Gorgon is so smart that he would transcend as a way to
gain the power needed to wipe out his enemies, he`d probably have to know
from his own experience that it would line up the gods against him, so he`d
have to not only transcend, but transcend to such a level of divine power
that he could take the rest of the pantheon on as well.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 07:01 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
>mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
>deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t
>do it themselves.
>
>To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
>each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

It`s fine to go with this sort of thing and base your play on it. The
campaign setting, however, isn`t quite so extreme. The current gods, of
course, were extremely high level humans before Deismaar who
transcended. Granted, there was something of a shortcut in the divinity
route, but nonetheless they are transcendent mortals. The major BR gods
are certainly more powerful than mortals, but I think that`s rather missing
the point being made. It`s not whether mortals can take on those gods, but
whether mortals after accomplishing great deeds can eventually take on a
divine creature at the lower end of that scale and become divine himself.

Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Gary

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