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  1. #1
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    The Gorgon in 2E was a Ftr25/Wiz16. Converting this to 3E gives him 25+16/2=33 levels. How do you people split this up? Do some keep him as Ftr25/Wiz16 or perhaps as Ftr20/Wiz16?

    Ftr20/Wiz13 is the way I'm inclined to do it. Any thoughts?
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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    He should be at least a 15th level wizard; he had 8th level spells in 2e, and that should be retained. All but the most powerful of magics are his to command. I'd put it at 18/15, or even be generous and make it 20/15 - just to make him 20th level.

    It will be interesting to see the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods. Might squeeze something from those. I certainly can't wait to generate some stats for the Cerilian gods.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #3
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    I don't like the Gorgon. Particularly the Wizard levels. Why does he need that? He's already nigh invincible, without them. Give him some prestige class(es) instead.
    Explain how this is a signature, its not my handwriting.

    The hardest part was teaching the bunnies to hug. -Duke Phillips

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    Orginally posted by Green Knight

    The Gorgon in 2E was a Ftr25/Wiz16. Converting this to 3E gives him 25+16/2=33 levels. How do you people split this up? Do some keep him as Ftr25/Wiz16 or perhaps as Ftr20/Wiz16?

    Ftr20/Wiz13 is the way I'm inclined to do it. Any thoughts?
    Well, an OFFICIAL conversion would give him 25+16/3=30 levels, not 33.
    If you are to give him 8th level spells, that would make him 15/15, not an option IMO (should be more powerful as a fighter). So, you must either drop the wizard levels, or 'raise' his total levels.

  5. #5
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    Merely a first draft. Never been double checked, even by me. I'm almost to the point whre I can double check my work on awnshgh guide I'm making. It's a lot harder then I though on some of them. Tell me what you think.


    Gorgon

    Large-Size 16th/14th-level Fighter/Wizard
    Monstrous Humanoid True Awnshegh (Evil, Lawful)
    Hit Dice: 30d12 + 160 (346 hps)
    Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Init)
    Speed: 20 ft.
    AC: 36 (- 1 size, +8 natural armor, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word)
    Attacks: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender +41/+36/+31/+26/+21+16
    Damage: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender 2d6 +14
    Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft. / 5 ft.
    Special Attacks:
    Spells: (4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 3, 3, 2)
    Gaze Attack: By concentrating for one full round on an opponent, the Gorgon can cause his target to turn to stone (Fortitude save verse DC 27) or cause him to fall dead (Fortitude save verse DC 25). If the victim is within 30 feet the DC is increased by +2. The maximum range the gaze can be delivered is 100 feet.
    Kick (Ex): The Gorgon can deliver a powerful kick to those foolish enough to stand behind him. This special kick is delivered as a free action, but it can only be taken once per round. While performing this action the Gorgon gets no dexterity bonus, if applicable. Kick + 27 melee, damage 2d6 +2.
    Weapon Mastery (Ex): The Gorgon is proficient, skill focused, and specialized in all known weapons.
    Special Qualities:
    Damage Reduction 20 / +3, Fast Healing 8, Low-light and Darkvision (60 feet),
    Spell Resistance 20, Blood Abilities: Bloodform (Great) Long Life (Great), Berserker's Blood (Great), Battlewise (Major), Charm Aura (Major), Major Resistance [poison] (Major), Heightened Ability (Minor), Enhanced Sense (Minor), Detect Illusion (Minor), Bloodmark (Minor) No longer visible.
    Saves: Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +17
    Abilities: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 15, Blo 50+
    Skills: The Gorgon has many skills considered to be 30+.
    Feats: Alertness, Blindfight, Blooded Scion, Battle Magic, Cleave, Combat Casting, Endurance, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical: greatsword, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Sunder, Run, Toughness, Trample, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Still Casting
    Challenge Rating: 35
    Possessions: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word

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    A CR of 35 might be a tad high; compare him to a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which arguably has a CR that's too low.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

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    Am I the only one that noticed that challenge ratings tend to be way too low for most creatures? If you consider the fact that each class level gives 1 point of CR, a human fighter 6 or barbarian 6 would thus be CR 6, but a minotaur, which has about as many hp & attack power, only has a CR of 4. And don't even get me started on the toughest creatures out there: Solar, with a CR of 19? be serious. Heck, its a wonder why the great wyrms(red, silver & gold in particular) don't have challenge rating of 35-40...

    I really wish someone would have the patience to revamp the CR system.
    Respectfully submitted,

    Temujin,
    Would-be ruler of you all. =)

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    CR isn't an exact science. That said, it is clearly based on character levels - i.e. a character of a given level poses a certain level of challenge to a set group of characters of the same levels. The CR system in the MM assumes access to certain resources and a certain level of magic by level; if this is not the case, CRs need adjustment. Facing undead without a cleric is rough, to use the most common example.

    As for the specific example you quote, a minotaur against a 6th-level character - the 6th-level character is significantly tougher.

    Minotaur: hp 39, AC 14, +9/+4 attack (2d8+4)
    Fighter: hp 49, AC 22, +11/+6 attack (1d10+5)
    Barbarian: hp 50, AC 18, +11/+6 attack (1d12+4)
    Raging Barbarian: hp 62, AC 16, +13/+8 attack (1d12+7)

    From those numbers alone, a 6th-level barbarian or fighter would best a standard minotaur. When you also add in the fact that the characters will have some additional magic items and other abilities and feats that the minotaur does not, their versatility increases even more.

    Note that for a single character of a given level, a CR of the same level is a much higher EL, making it basically a 50-50 chance for either to survive.

    For a barbarian or fighter party, a minotaur _might_ have a higher CR, because they must deal with it on its own terms. For a primarily wizardly party, it might have a lower effective CR. A rogue would have some extra difficulties dealing with minotaurs, due to their immunity to being flat-footed and relatively good listen and spot scores, along with scent.

    In general, though, a minotaur doesn't strike me as much more than a CR of 4, when you compare it to what characters of that level can do - a 4th-level barbarian compares well to a minotaur, as does an intelligently played fighter. Just remember that the equipment these characters possess is a part of their CR as well.

    In BR, due to the lower frequency of magical items, strange things happen to CRs at higher levels. A balor would be a greater challenge in BR than most worlds, for instance.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  9. #9
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    Yes, its true that your average fighter or barbarian of level 6 will beat the minotaur. But even then, unless he's exceptionally strong or lucky, there's very little chance of him successfully handling two of them, yet, technically speaking, two minotaurs are worth the same xp-wise as a character of that level. I'd bet my dough on a minotaur facing a single level 4 or 5 character all the way, unless the character is exceptionally strong, that's for sure.
    But, even if we assume that a minotaur is as strong as your average level 4 character, something to which I disagree, but that is pointless to argue on, then comes the following question:
    Why in hell is a Minotaur fighter 1 PC treated as a level 9 character(See DMG p. 22) while a Minotaur fighter 1 monster gets treated as a character level 5 CR-wise? Its a bit ridiculous don't you think?

    And I'd like to say that this is an exception that proves the rule, but unfortunately, the Monstrous Manual is riddled with creatures who should have higher CRs, and on the other hand, you have these over-inflated averaged level for PC monsters which kinda makes the whole situation a bit ridiculous, even though I understand it was done on one hand to slow down the PC progression rate at mid-to-high levels, and on the other to disuade them from taking unusual races as characters.

    I realize I shouldn't expect a perfect system, but I was hoping for a little more consistency ;)
    Respectfully submitted,

    Temujin,
    Would-be ruler of you all. =)

  10. #10
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    For a fighter-type character, a minotaur probably has a higher effective CR, because the minotaur's abilities are so close to the fighter's own, thus leaving the fighter with a minimal advantage. A 6th-level fighter would probably not be able to handle two minotaurs on his own; one of 7th or 8th level might.

    Don't make the mistake of mixing CR and ECL - one is for balancing encounters against a party, the other is for intra-party balance. Let's quickly examine the minotaur's stats a bit:

    +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha, Large size (10 foot reach), 6d8 HD, +5 natural armor, +6 BAB, some misc racial bonuses that aren't insignificant.

    At first glance, the minotaur should be at least +6 ECL - anything else would be ludicrous, and would grant a BAB and save progression that is beyond what is normally possible. Further, as a fighter-type, the minotaur gains significant additional bonuses. Assuming a standard spread, its ability scores might look thus:

    Str 23, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6. HD 6d8+1d10+21 (58 hp)

    Let's check its further combat potential: Buy weapon focus (greatsword), power attack as feats. Skills doesn't really matter, though the character has very nice bonuses to very powerful skills.

    Now, let's don a chain shirt, and put on a large shield. That's +6 AC. Add in the natural armor and the dex bonus, and you get +13 AC, -1 size. AC 22. And he does 2d6+6 damage, at 10' reach, at an attack bonus of +13/+8 or so.

    This doesn't necessarily look like a 9th-level character ... yet. Remember the character's other abilities, like Scent and natural cunning - essentially, he gets most of the benefits of uncanny dodge for free. Then consider the further minmax potential inherent in such a high natural strength and constitution.

    Would such a character have an effectiveness on par with a 9th-level fighter, even though he's only 1st level? Yes, in most cases. That is as a PC creature, however, and not as a monster. You need to consider the impact that huge strength bonus has over the term of a campaign. It doesn't matter how many spell-like abilities a balor has if it dies in a single encounter. It _does_ matter if those come into play in every single encounter the PCs _ever_ face. Same thing with the big minotaur strength bonus.

    The natural next line of inquiry would be a comparison with ogres, who are even stronger. The big differences: Dexterity penalty, fewer HD, far lower BAB (+3), no extra bonuses (scent, senses, cunning, charge).

    The bottom line is: Don't confuse CR with ECL.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

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