Rheulgard

[Autarkis]

Discussion thread for Rheulgard. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Magnus Argent]

Does anyone know why the source potential for Rheulgard's forest provinces are so odd? I know there are ways to justify them (maybe underground caverns, maybe something at the bottom of the lake, maybe this, maybe that..) but are they following some obscure rules that I've somehow missed?

Beuraben 0/9
Coulbaraigh 4/3
Deuchlach 2/6
Dezeel 2/5
Endlun 5/2
Eolrab 2/7
Nochlauch 4/4
Podenstahl 5/3
Unbraustadt 4/4
Zedforst 0/9

Pascht 2/7

The Burrows' provinces on the other side of the lakes would all have a max source potential of 7, if not for civilization.

Coulbaraigh (4/3) and Deezel (2/5) both have potential max source ratings of 7 compared to Deuchlach, Nolauch, Podenstahl and Unbraustadt who each would have potential max source level of 8, if not for the trappings of civilization.

Then you have Pascht (2/7) an elven/awnshelien ruler, Beruban (0/9), and Zedforst (0/9)

Also, how did Wohlers and Wahlrud become a (5/0) provinces without any regents? If you look at Rheulean Greencloak's domain holding table, those two provinces are literally listed as having no ruler.

Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?

[masterdaorin]

Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?

The latter, I would argue. I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).

Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there. The Brecht tend to huddle into cities, and be more concerned with internal feuds and raids rather than warring with their neighbors, hence their usually slightly higher population values. They are, simply put, slightly more urban than their feudal neighbors (excepting the Khinasi, of course).

The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).

Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?

[Magnus Argent]

Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?

There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.

I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).

I'd be happy to take a look at the Maze with you.

The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).

All true. But none of that has anything to do with my question.

Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there.

Yes, at first glance it does look like it checks out, doesn't it? But dive in a little deeper.

First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.

Yes, that's odd. None of the other realms in the Coulladraight have any provinces with max source potential of 8. Coullabhie's provinces, for example, all have a max potential of 7 (forest) or 9 (ancient forest).

In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:

• Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
• The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
• In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.

So, there be the condundrum.

[masterdaorin]

There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.

Who says there are no rulers? As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.

Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?

First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.
...
In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:

• Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
• The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
• In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.

So, there be the condundrum.

Well, you've got two options:

1) Decide that the editor of said source material sucked, and chalk this up to a typo. Or,
2) As I believe I have stated in another thread, there are lots of these "conundrums" scattered in the sourcebooks. My preferred solution is thus:

Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.

There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.

So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.

Those few provinces left that defy this system I've explained instead as a topographical explanation - meaning, those that are higher than expected are "low-points" in the terrain, where mebhaighl collects, are mebhaighl "rich", and those that are lower are suppressed in some way - mebhaighl "poor". The latter, of course, might be harder to explain...

And another interesting thing about this then becomes: how to explain why the elves don't affect this potential... But you probably will not like my explanation for it... those provinces in Lluabraight, for example...

[Magnus Argent]

Who says there are no rulers?

Again, I don't know how to restate it any clearer so I will once again ask you to scroll up and review my initial post. I believe I identified exactly what says there are no rulers.

As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.

I'm pretty sure you're just making this up. Or can you cite where you're getting this information?

Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?

If that were the case, there would be no 0-level provinces anywhere. I know you're not a fan of the Birthright/AD&D rules but they still do apply to the official canon setting.

Well, you've got two options:

I'm not looking for options as to handle theses odd province stats. I'm looking to confirm that these stats are, indeed, odd. I intend to add an observation to Rheulgard's wiki page pointing out why the stats in question are odd and then invite DMs who enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the setting to come up with their own way of explaining the situation.

Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.

Again, rules.

There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.

Yes, I know. I took the time to identify some of them.

So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.

Clearly you've spent some time and effort in thoughtful consideration of this matter. I respect that. And I appreciate the example you provided for how you chose to handle the matter in your version of Cerilia.

When a post starts out presenting opinions and misinformation as facts, I have a tendency to dismiss everything else that the author has to say. I'm glad I continued to read your full post.

[masterdaorin]

Again, I don't know how to restate it any clearer so I will once again ask you to scroll up and review my initial post. I believe I identified exactly what says there are no rulers.

So, you're telling me that because its says that there are no regents listed for those provinces, that this means that there can't possibly be any governmental structure therein?

I'm pretty sure you're just making this up. Or can you cite where you're getting this information?

See above.

I'll say again: a swamp is really just a wet forest. So, are you saying that there can't possibly be any '8' forests around that are "dry"-ish?

If that were the case, there would be on 0-level provinces anywhere.

Sic. Really, Magnus? That's what you got out of that?

I'm not looking for options as to handle theses odd province stats. I'm looking to confirm that these stats are, indeed, odd. I intend to add an observation to Rheulgard's wiki page pointing out why the stats in question are odd and then invite DMs who enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the setting to come up with their own way of explaining the situation.

They are indeed different from many other provinces. Does that make them odd? Does that mean they are all typos? I gave you my observations as to why I think they are not.

Hey, you did ask... See below.

Note that I never said anywhere that you, or anyone, has to accept or even use my explanations... I'm assuming you posted this here to solicit opinions from the general membership? Or, did I miss something? If so, I apologize.

Does anyone know why the source potential for Rheulgard's forest provinces are so odd?

[Magnus Argent]

So, you're telling me that because its says that there are no regents listed for those provinces, that this means that there can't possibly be any governmental structure therein?



See above.

I'll say again: a swamp is really just a wet forest. So, are you saying that there can't possibly be any '8' forests around that are "dry"-ish?



Sic. Really, Magnus? That's what you got out of that?



They are indeed different from many other provinces. Does that make them odd? Does that mean they are all typos? I gave you my observations as to why I think they are not.

Hey, you did ask... See below.

Note that I never said anywhere that you, or anyone, has to accept or even use my explanations... I'm assuming you posted this here to solicit opinions from the general membership? Or, did I miss something? If so, I apologize.

Ok, thanks for posting your thoughts on this topic.

[Ratty]

As a regent of Rheulgard of 3 years, allow me to comment. I suspect that Rheulgard has gotten more play in our game spanning the entire bay, than ever in the history of Birthright.

First off, the idea behind 1/8 elven forests is that there is a modest human and especially crossbreed population living there. This is clearly the case with Southern Rhuannach for example, where barely inhabited human forest turn into slightly damaged elven forest.

The game consistently shows you Ancient Forest as 9 total province value, jungle, plains and young forest as 7 value, desert as 5 value, and so on. We've noticed pretty quickly in our campaign that Rheulgard's default numbers are weird, so we changed them. Generally speaking, the only time you see irregular numbers is when the land is cursed in some fashion, but there are actually quite a lot of these irregularities. For example, Lands of the Basilisk and the Mistmoor are cursed deadlands. You can even imagine that the Sources are being outright siphoned away into awnmebhaighl on realm level. Drachenward has a 3/3 province that's clearly just a forest, but it's a bit special in that it's right next to the Hag. Similarly, Lutkhovsky has a 0/8 forest province, but it also has a temple of Lirovka, so it could be that part of the forest has sunk into the Shadow World (seems like something that should really be in realm description). I don't know what would explain the three 8-value provinces north of Urga-Zai.

We can see the Harrowmarsh being consistent with the other swamp provinces in the Gulf of Coeranys, with a total province value of 8. It's just a rare biome type. Also not something the players are really supposed to see at all, since the province values are hidden on the official map.

Thus, one explanation for the weird math in Rheulgard is that Unbraustadt and Nochlauch are actually swamps. This would make lots of sense considering Nochlauch's position at a river bend between two lakes. But it makes little sense for Unbraustadt, which is right next to a desert, even if a cursed one. It makes no sense at all in Deuchlach.

Thus, the much more logical explanation for Rheulgard's odd values is that it's one of those places that the devs didn't finish before they all got fired. You see, Rheulgard is sort of the poster child for the 'default state' issue many realms have (and practically all Vos realms do), which is funnier for it being a recommended player realm: If played by core, everything is instantly completely apocalyptic and nobody has any money to solve the immediately occurring problems. Many regents are literally incapable of paying their army upkeep if they don't roll great on income.

In Rheulgard:
You are pressed by like 5 armies at once depending on what the GM decides. Muden is possibly your friend but it's also an imperialist force which would love to make you into a vassal.
You have no money. If no player picked guilder, the default guild is a literal bandit gang, and it still takes years to develop it into something that can actually support the country if it's not.
You are threatened by several major Awnshegh at once. The Swordhawk from the west, who can conquer Treucht easy and then he's your problem. There's also the Banshegh who hates you and constantly kills your people. The Sphinx can come from the south, who'd love himself some of those sweet sources, and besides him you can expect all kinds of slaver bands from the south.
To the east is an expansionist Vos realm which will raid you for laughs.
You're surrounded by two elven forests who hate you if you develop the provinces which you need to do to make money you need to not get conquered.
As the final nail in the coffin, the country is ran by three people who hate each other. This is exacerbated by the clear social tensions within the country between Brechts, Khinasi, Elves, and possibly even Vos in the east. If you're starting in a neighboring country, it feels practically intended to divide and conquer Rheulgard by making two of the Regents turn against the third and swoop in after the civil war. That's without any external invasion at all. It's just a completely infernal place to be a regent of. You BETTER make friends with the Burrows, because everybody else would love to see you ruined.

At the same time, there is a completely different reason why Rheulgard makes a splendid player realm: It's connected to most of Cerilia through the rivers, so it actually has the potential to become very cosmopolitan. If you can get Paschacht or just a road to Muden, you can travel anywhere you want quickly, except far west and far Vosgard. Kind of like this:


In short, playing Rheulgard in Birthright is a lot like playing Italy in Diplomacy. You start in huge trouble, you need to immediately establish order in the realm to survive, but unlike say Rovninodensk which is pretty much completely screwed without heavy GM fiat, you do have lots of opportunities to gain an upper hand, exactly since the province values are high. You'll probably never get rid of all your problems, since you are dead center of the map and behind every problem you've dealt with is an even bigger problem rearing its head. However, it does allow you to use pretty much the entire setting, except the Rjuvik and who wants to use those guys they're lame

[Magnus Argent]

As a regent of Rheulgard of 3 years, allow me to comment. I suspect that Rheulgard has gotten more play in our game spanning the entire bay, than ever in the history of Birthright.

Sounds like a fun campaign!

First off, the idea behind 1/8 elven forests is that there is a modest human and especially crossbreed population living there. This is clearly the case with Southern Rhuannach for example, where barely inhabited human forest turn into slightly damaged elven forest.

I agree. The only reason I even brought it up is because so many of the province/source around it seemed wonky.

The game consistently shows you Ancient Forest as 9 total province value, jungle, plains and young forest as 7 value, desert as 5 value, and so on. We've noticed pretty quickly in our campaign that Rheulgard's default numbers are weird, so we changed them.

Ok, thanks! I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought the numbers were odd.

Generally speaking, the only time you see irregular numbers is when the land is cursed in some fashion, but there are actually quite a lot of these irregularities. For example, Lands of the Basilisk and the Mistmoor are cursed deadlands. You can even imagine that the Sources are being outright siphoned away into awnmebhaighl on realm level. Drachenward has a 3/3 province that's clearly just a forest, but it's a bit special in that it's right next to the Hag. Similarly, Lutkhovsky has a 0/8 forest province, but it also has a temple of Lirovka, so it could be that part of the forest has sunk into the Shadow World (seems like something that should really be in realm description). I don't know what would explain the three 8-value provinces north of Urga-Zai.

I believe the temple in Lutkhovsky is dedicated to Sirova (aka Sera/Saramie), not Lirovka (aka Ruornil/Rilni/Lirorn). I don't think that necessarily changes the calculus, however.

We can see the Harrowmarsh being consistent with the other swamp provinces in the Gulf of Coeranys, with a total province value of 8. It's just a rare biome type. Also not something the players are really supposed to see at all, since the province values are hidden on the official map.

Thus, one explanation for the weird math in Rheulgard is that Unbraustadt and Nochlauch are actually swamps. This would make lots of sense considering Nochlauch's position at a river bend between two lakes. But it makes little sense for Unbraustadt, which is right next to a desert, even if a cursed one. It makes no sense at all in Deuchlach.

There are certainly other valid ways to explain the Source potential for Rheulgard's provinces but, if we presume the source material is accurate, concluding they are actually wetlands seems like a reasonable explanation.