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  1. #1

    Rheulgard

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  2. #2

    Wacky Rheulgard

    Does anyone know why the source potential for Rheulgard's forest provinces are so odd? I know there are ways to justify them (maybe underground caverns, maybe something at the bottom of the lake, maybe this, maybe that..) but are they following some obscure rules that I've somehow missed?

    Beuraben 0/9
    Coulbaraigh 4/3
    Deuchlach 2/6
    Dezeel 2/5
    Endlun 5/2
    Eolrab 2/7
    Nochlauch 4/4
    Podenstahl 5/3
    Unbraustadt 4/4
    Zedforst 0/9

    Pascht 2/7

    The Burrows' provinces on the other side of the lakes would all have a max source potential of 7, if not for civilization.

    Coulbaraigh (4/3) and Deezel (2/5) both have potential max source ratings of 7 compared to Deuchlach, Nolauch, Podenstahl and Unbraustadt who each would have potential max source level of 8, if not for the trappings of civilization.

    Then you have Pascht (2/7) an elven/awnshelien ruler, Beruban (0/9), and Zedforst (0/9)

    Also, how did Wohlers and Wahlrud become a (5/0) provinces without any regents? If you look at Rheulean Greencloak's domain holding table, those two provinces are literally listed as having no ruler.

    Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus Argent View Post
    Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?
    The latter, I would argue. I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).

    Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

    The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there. The Brecht tend to huddle into cities, and be more concerned with internal feuds and raids rather than warring with their neighbors, hence their usually slightly higher population values. They are, simply put, slightly more urban than their feudal neighbors (excepting the Khinasi, of course).

    The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).

    Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?
    There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).
    I'd be happy to take a look at the Maze with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).
    All true. But none of that has anything to do with my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

    The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there.
    Yes, at first glance it does look like it checks out, doesn't it? But dive in a little deeper.

    First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

    Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.

    Yes, that's odd. None of the other realms in the Coulladraight have any provinces with max source potential of 8. Coullabhie's provinces, for example, all have a max potential of 7 (forest) or 9 (ancient forest).

    In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:

    • Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
    • The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
    • In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.


    So, there be the condundrum.
    Last edited by Magnus Argent; 12-21-2023 at 06:11 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus Argent View Post
    There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.
    Who says there are no rulers? As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

    He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.

    Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus Argent View Post
    First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

    Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.
    ...
    In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:

    • Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
    • The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
    • In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.


    So, there be the condundrum.
    Well, you've got two options:

    1) Decide that the editor of said source material sucked, and chalk this up to a typo. Or,
    2) As I believe I have stated in another thread, there are lots of these "conundrums" scattered in the sourcebooks. My preferred solution is thus:

    Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.

    There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.

    So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

    Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
    Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
    Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
    Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
    Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

    This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.

    Those few provinces left that defy this system I've explained instead as a topographical explanation - meaning, those that are higher than expected are "low-points" in the terrain, where mebhaighl collects, are mebhaighl "rich", and those that are lower are suppressed in some way - mebhaighl "poor". The latter, of course, might be harder to explain...

    And another interesting thing about this then becomes: how to explain why the elves don't affect this potential... But you probably will not like my explanation for it... those provinces in Lluabraight, for example...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Who says there are no rulers?
    Again, I don't know how to restate it any clearer so I will once again ask you to scroll up and review my initial post. I believe I identified exactly what says there are no rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

    He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.
    I'm pretty sure you're just making this up. Or can you cite where you're getting this information?

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?
    If that were the case, there would be no 0-level provinces anywhere. I know you're not a fan of the Birthright/AD&D rules but they still do apply to the official canon setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Well, you've got two options:
    I'm not looking for options as to handle theses odd province stats. I'm looking to confirm that these stats are, indeed, odd. I intend to add an observation to Rheulgard's wiki page pointing out why the stats in question are odd and then invite DMs who enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the setting to come up with their own way of explaining the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.
    Again, rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.
    Yes, I know. I took the time to identify some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

    Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
    Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
    Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
    Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
    Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

    This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.
    Clearly you've spent some time and effort in thoughtful consideration of this matter. I respect that. And I appreciate the example you provided for how you chose to handle the matter in your version of Cerilia.

    When a post starts out presenting opinions and misinformation as facts, I have a tendency to dismiss everything else that the author has to say. I'm glad I continued to read your full post.
    Last edited by Magnus Argent; 12-24-2023 at 04:40 PM.

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