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  1. #31
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    prion disorders are a pain to GM...
    I thought that's why the included the insanity rules.

  2. #32
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    Hmm it occurs to me to question whether this thread is really about Paladins.

    In my understanding Paladins were Holy warriors of Good. (Usually Lawful) who held to a special honour code of behaviour.

    Other gods and alignments can have their specialty/prestige classes for their religious warriors and call them whatever they like - Blackguards, Warriors of Belinek, Beloved of Mystra blah blah.

    GM's can create any Prestige or Class they like for their pet bad guys or players. After all - you - not the game system are in charge of " Game Balance" so do it - if you feel you can cope with those Power hungry munkin players.

    If you want to alter a Paladin and change a few powers here and there and make a druid True Neutral version then go for it - but don't call it a paladin.

    Personally I have these crazy cultists following the Cold rider... that have a bunch of really fun rituals involving baptising their followers in the "Blood" of anyone except for the Blooded of Azari.... (Templet and special prestige class available for bad guys)

  3. #33
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Hmm it occurs to me to question whether this thread is really about Paladins.

    In my understanding Paladins were Holy warriors of Good. (Usually Lawful) who held to a special honour code of behaviour.

    Other gods and alignments can have their specialty/prestige classes for their religious warriors and call them whatever they like - Blackguards, Warriors of Belinek, Beloved of Mystra blah blah.

    GM's can create any Prestige or Class they like for their pet bad guys or players. After all - you - not the game system are in charge of " Game Balance" so do it - if you feel you can cope with those Power hungry munkin players.

    If you want to alter a Paladin and change a few powers here and there and make a druid True Neutral version then go for it - but don't call it a paladin.

    Personally I have these crazy cultists following the Cold rider... that have a bunch of really fun rituals involving baptising their followers in the "Blood" of anyone except for the Blooded of Azari.... (Templet and special prestige class available for bad guys)
    It used to be that way in 2nd ed (except for BR which had the single except of paladins of Cuircean being CG) but with Unearthed Arcana and the paladin variants (pg 53 Paladin variants: Freedom, Slaughter and Tyranny). Which were CG (Freedom), LE (Tyranny) and CE (Slaughter) 3.5 has basically broadened the definition of what a paladin is. It is now more of a deeply religious warrior - someone who "epitomizes" an ideal or deity. There were also some other paladin variants in various Dragon magazines too.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #34
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post


    Here is some added examples and information about the idea that I have used during the years.

    First my personal experiences with the variation in my time as DM and PC.

    I have played an Paramander of Hermes (Greek Mythos). He had a few thiefly powers in addition to the some of the paladin ones. I have also had two players chose to play these paladin variations. One played an Illrigger of Grumsh (Yes an orc Paladin) & the other played a Fantra of Dionyous....He didn't last long.....he liked to worship his god by drinking just a weeeeee bit too much.

    Secondly here are how I percieve some of the variations that would occur in the use of the plethora of paladins ideas.

    So lets go a step further here with the paladin powers. What powers would be universal, and which would be changed by alignment/faith. (and how).

    1) All stats limitations remain the same.

    2) Races Allowed could vary due to diety choice....such as the Illrigger of Grumush above.

    3) Detect Evil....becomes detect opposite alignments for good/evils and for neutrals they can distinguish both.

    4) Save bonus +2 remains

    5) Immune to all diseases is a deity based power so they can keep it.

    6) Aura's of protection remain vs alignments not their own.

    7) Holy swords for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Turn undead, devils, demons.....the article addresses this, but this could also be where there is a little DM complication.

    First the undead turning can be made into controlling by the Evil aligned paladins. For the neutrals there would be NO turning for T/N, and all others neutrals must not be part of a nature patheon as Undead are beyond their understanding to control or affect (druids can't turn undead). Finally with the devil/demon turning there will be a need to review the Outer Planes monster compendiums to find the correct type of creatures that may be turned. Anti paladins would affect some of the aasimar.....others would affect the guardinal, eladrin, rilmani, beatzu....

    AS DM you will have to handle the details here.

    9) Call on warhorse........this power could be more viably made into warmount....as some races and faiths would have their own version of the faithful mount.

    10) Cast priest spells......this is taken care of by the original Dragon Magazine Article.

    Now with these said I want to mention a small bit on the variations of personal beliefs....which it does appear that some wish to have limitations int he playing of alignment.

    The ideas of faith/belief structures would be well and truely tied into the deity they chose and their alignment. Just because it isn't good or evil doesn't mean that is unswervingly follows a set of beliefs tied to its religious order.

    Heck look at real world faiths, and all the varieties of belief systems, now multiply it by the varied levels of personal zeal one carries for such a belief system, and in my lowly opinion you can easilly integrate the militant orders of each faith and alignment to have their cadre of Paladins.

    Also for my ol' Paramander....The Paramander above worshipped with a lot of very zealous stealing in the Name of Hermes......and he also enjoyed a game of cards from time to time.....lucky such and such.

    Just some ideas on the subject.

    Later

    Hmm, I managed to miss this post before!

    My take:

    1) Stat limits: The charisma limitation suggests one view of a paladin, I'd keep it reasonable (a champion should have a certain presence) but reduce it for a paladin of, say, Belinik in favour of a strength minimum. As another example a paladin of Avani should need to be smarter, so I'd add an int minimum for example.

    2) Other races: Agree, although in BR other issues limit races - elves have no priests so no paladins... Belinik might accept the worship of orogs, the great goblins, etc and have paladins for them too.

    3) Detect evil: Hmm, I dislike the power - it eliminates some role-playing opportunities and as the posts moved to an alignment show, alignment is too subjective to be useful. I'd replace it with a minor power giving the flavour of the god - for example a paladin of Avani could radiate light (as the spell) once per level per day instead.

    4) All saves +2: hmm, I'd change this to best save of fighter/priest and be done with it... In 3e no change.

    5) Immunity to disease comes from the idea of a paladin as incorruptible and pure, ok for the traditional western paladin but less so for other paladin who follow a different moral code.

    I'd replace it with a different medium power (complete priest concept for you newbies, basically granted pwoers are high medium or low based on power, it gives several alternatives to turn undead, shapechange, lay on hands, etc).
    I dislike absolute immunity powers, in the Avani example this could become 'purging light' - the paladin can draw upon the power of the holy sun during midday to purge themselves of disease, poison etc - they get to try another save/fort check at +1 level to the die roll, success eliminating the contamination to maintain power they could do this for themselves, or for one of the fiathful of Avani.

    6) aura of protection - I'd make it aid those of the same / allied faith, and oppose those considered evil/unclean by the church in question, to continue the example Avani's paladin would weaken those whose powers are based on darkness or negative energy and aid Avani's truly faithful (DM fiat, not effective for those who just mouth the prayers without any real belief or ignore her dictates and moral code). Alternatively as it mucks up the book-keeping in combat I'd drop it...

    7) holy swords - I don't see all gods as being anti-magic which the power to dispel suggests. I also dislike the 'you only get this power if you find a magic sword' approach and support the way it was dropped in 3e.

    For the swords themselves, I'd say each faith should create special magic items for their faithful, I see no problem with holy spears/cudgels.... In the example I'd say the holy weapon should have power over fire/light not be the steroetypical magic-breaking holy avenger as Avani welcomes most magic and a flaming blade that burns with the touch of the sun is so much more thematic.

    8) turn undead - this works ok for Avani, but I'd still consider replacing it with a light based power - say shining glory - emit light in a radius (base don level/cha) equivalent to sunray once per 3 levels / in 3e standard limits. That is a little less useful against undead but better against orogs and others who love darkness. I also love the idea of a paladin raising their sword high and calling on Avani to bring her light to a battlefield... I'd reduce the impact a little (reduce blindness to say -2 to hit for most, damage from 3d6 to 1d(level) as otherwise it's over-revved, but allow light in a large radius in addition. Alternatively immunity (i.e. auto save) against fire might be interesting (DR say 5+2/level in 3e)

    9) call warhorse. This really works in a paladin - knight in shining armour system. For Avani I'd replace it with desertwalker - reduced movement penalties on sand, swifter movement, or such like or soothing word from the complete priest low power list (calm/sway a mob, dispel fear/berserker rage from 1 person, 3 times a day in total).

    10) cast priest spells - indeed, although I'd swop the standard paladin progression for '+1 level of priest spellcasting every 3/4 levels' to bring it more into line with multiclassing for 3e... In 3e I'd also try to do a conversion from spell slots to granted powers to reflect the less 'bookish' approach to problem solving for a paladin.

    Other.

    Lay on hands - this again takes a particular archetype of paladins. I'd swop it where appropriate - why would a paladin of Belinik be able to heal? Avani might allow it, or swop it for a knowledge based power more in keeping with her tenets. From complete priest alternate medium granted powers would be prophecy, or immunity to energy drains.

    Cure disease: ditto. Paladins of Nesierie, etc clearly yes, a paladin of Belinik or Kreisha would kill the fool if they allowed a mere illness to overwhelm them....

    Hmm, I only really considered Avani but other paladin types should be do-able, any one want to consider a paladin of Kreisha? Of the Serpent?

  5. #35
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    AndrewTall schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3834
    > AndrewTall wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    ...
    > I have played an Paramander of Hermes (Greek Mythos). He had a few thiefly powers in addition to the some of the paladin ones. I have also had two players chose to play these paladin variations. One played an Illrigger of Grumsh (Yes an orc Paladin) & the other played a Fantra of Dionyous....He didn`t last long.....he liked to worship his god by drinking just a weeeeee bit too much.
    >
    > Secondly here are how I percieve some of the variations that would occur in the use of the plethora of paladins ideas.
    >
    >
    I would not call all of these "Paladins". A paladin is in the
    imagination of many a very specific holy warrior, a knight on a quest
    with links to Roland or arthurian quest for the grail. "Paramander" or
    "Illrigger" are something different. Holy Warriors maybe or "Divine
    Champions" like in the new Wizards book, but not Paladins.
    > ...
    > 7) holy swords - I don`t see all gods as being anti-magic which the power to dispel suggests. I also dislike the `you only get this power if you find a magic sword` approach and support the way it was dropped in 3e.
    > For the swords themselves, I`d say each faith should create special magic items for their faithful, I see no problem with holy spears/cudgels.... In the example I`d say the holy weapon should have power over fire/light not be the steroetypical magic-breaking holy avenger as Avani welcomes most magic and a flaming blade that burns with the touch of the sun is so much more thematic.
    >
    Not necessarily. Avani might have a holy order of Paladins sworn to hunt
    down those wizards who have not sworn or broken the oaths of Rilni - and
    then something spellbreaking makes sense.

    > Lay on hands - this again takes a particular archetype of paladins. I`d swop it where appropriate - why would a paladin of Belinik be able to heal?
    And even thought furhter - even if a holy warrior of Belinik *could*
    heal - why should he do so? Aiding the weak? Comforting those who can?t
    stand some pain? ;-)

  6. #36
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    >
    I would not call all of these "Paladins". A paladin is in the
    imagination of many a very specific holy warrior, a knight on a quest
    with links to Roland or arthurian quest for the grail. "Paramander" or
    "Illrigger" are something different. Holy Warriors maybe or "Divine
    Champions" like in the new Wizards book, but not Paladins.
    > ...
    > 7) I`d say the holy weapon should have power over fire/light not be the steroetypical magic-breaking holy avenger as Avani welcomes most magic and a flaming blade that burns with the touch of the sun is so much more thematic.
    >
    Not necessarily. Avani might have a holy order of Paladins sworn to hunt
    down those wizards who have not sworn or broken the oaths of Rilni - and
    then something spellbreaking makes sense.

    > Lay on hands - this again takes a particular archetype of paladins. I`d swop it where appropriate - why would a paladin of Belinik be able to heal?
    And even thought furhter - even if a holy warrior of Belinik *could*
    heal - why should he do so? Aiding the weak? Comforting those who can?t
    stand some pain? ;-)
    I think the thread refers holy warriors - with paladins being a familiar shorthand and example of the stereotypical knight in shining armour type. So do you want a warrior/priest (or barbarian/druid) class combo, or a single class designed to fill the role...

    Yes Avani could have an order of mage hunters, sworn to hunt down those who betray or fail to take the 5 oaths of Rilni, that would be a different paladin subclass - although I'd give them spell resistance not dispel - spell resistance is a passive defense that protects the chamion, dispel an active defense that acts after the fact to remove a condition - if you fight alone you probably want spell resistance.

    The paladin of Belinik would, imho, be better with some form of regeneration than a healing power that can be used on others. As you note they are not overly burdened by pity, however healing warriors so that they can go back into the fray - and promising healing so that the warriors embrace an aggressive stance without fear that wounds won in glorious battle will cripple them - that's healing that Belinik would approve of!

  7. #37
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    I still think that best option is to make Paladins Prestige Classes, instead of core class...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  8. #38
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMoon View Post
    I still think that best option is to make Paladins Prestige Classes, instead of core class...
    Quite possibly, start with fighter or priest and then go prestige when you have proved yourself worthy of being the gods champion... Have you designed a PrC for any of the BR deities?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Elton Robb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Quite possibly, start with fighter or priest and then go prestige when you have proved yourself worthy of being the gods champion... Have you designed a PrC for any of the BR deities?
    I'm afraid that I don't like this option.
    Regent of Medoere

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    I think the thread refers holy warriors - with paladins being a familiar shorthand and example of the stereotypical knight in shining armour type. So do you want a warrior/priest (or barbarian/druid) class combo, or a single class designed to fill the role...
    Holy warriors are something else entirely. The lack the stats to be the "Paladin" equivalent to their alignment/patheon/diety/portfolio.

    They have different names, as the Paladin is the L/G version of the quintessential knight of goodness. Other alignments and deities have their own take on what is to serve as their most virtuous (in an alignment sense) protectors of the faith and faithful.

    Paladins take it a step further by simply personifying the good side of the issue. Their lawfulness compels them to fight the forces of chaos and anarchy. Their goodness has them helping the less fortunate, or maybe that should be those less able to protect themselves from the predations of the other alignment forces & viewpoints.

    No one has to like the idea, but there are other breeds of paladins out there that serve a deity with zeal and a manner that is forthright and true to their alignment and deitie's portfolio.

    Now if you find that the Anti Paladin is helping a little ol' lady (his mums sister) across the street you can rip his anti paladiness away for commiting goods acts, instead of the oft repeated good doing evil issue.

    Later


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