Questions/Problems with Trade Route Rules

[kgauck]

Actually, they shpould be able to trade in their own realm. Many markets were local or regional.

But certainly this can be the only meaning of guild holdings in the first place. If guild holdings are not the local and regional markets wherein the owner of the means of production distributes his produce, what can they be and why would they earn incomes?

Rather, trade routes must express special connections to far away markets, rather like the long connected trade routes up the Rhone and then into the low countries through Burgundy and Champagne, where the fairs were so important.

Would I would like to see in trade routes is a disincentive to just link two provinces, but to get full effect of a trade route, link it to other linked trade routes, so that you get a Marsallies to Ghent route, or even a great Silk Road from the eastern Khinasi states to the city of Anuire. Great trade routes travel through hubs, great cities (and indeed the cities exist because of this trade). Nothing in the trade rules encourages or reflects these patterns.

[kgauck]

Yes that dwarven province might really be sick of the diet of soup made from the Campbell mushroom and desire fish, but they could also desire tenderloin steaks even more. My point is that.

Trade is controlled by guilders. If the market changes the guilder can be presumed to respond. If the guilder has a trade route from fishing port to dwarven mountain, he will just put cattle on that trade route to satisfy the new demand.

[irdeggman]

I would start by considering how rare trade routes actually are; and how much (local) trade is acutally a part of guild holdings.

QFT and also Kenneth's subsequent post.

A guild holding is not a single shop - it is a conglomeration of shops and such . A single shop is what is reflected by the results of a profession or craft check, a guilder (as in having guild holdings) is an "organizer" taking his piece off of the top of each of those.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
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> kgauck wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Actually, they shpould be able to trade in their own realm. Many markets were local or regional.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> But certainly this can be the only meaning of guild holdings in the first place. If guild holdings are not the local and regional markets wherein the owner of the means of production distributes his produce, what can they be and why would they earn incomes?
>
> Rather, trade routes must express special connections to far away markets, rather like the long connected trade routes up the Rhone and then into the low countries through Burgundy and Champagne, where the fairs were so important.
>
> Would I would like to see in trade routes is a disincentive to just link two provinces, but to get full effect of a trade route, link it to other linked trade routes, so that you get a Marsallies to Ghent route, or even a great Silk Road from the eastern Khinasi states to the city of Anuire. Great trade routes travel through hubs, great cities (and indeed the cities exist because of this trade). Nothing in the trade rules encourages or reflects these patterns.
>
Nothing in the 3E trade routes. The 2E rules had something to improve
trade routes. Trade Link? I don?t have my books at hand, but it gave +1
GB income for every trade route linked with the first trade route.

[AndrewTall]

QFT and also Kenneth's subsequent post.

A guild holding is not a single shop - it is a conglomeration of shops and such . A single shop is what is reflected by the results of a profession or craft check, a guilder (as in having guild holdings) is an "organizer" taking his piece off of the top of each of those.

To me that suggests that the local trade routes are already covered by guild profits - the organiser is almost certainly doing much of the shipping of goods, organising of trade fairs, setting of trading standards and so on - all the 'local trading' that has been described. It also suggests why the guilds can set up the real 'trade routes' but others (say landowners who hold land) cannot - the guilds are the conduit for collecting and moving large quantities of goods already even though others produce the goods...

[Jaleela]

But certainly this can be the only meaning of guild holdings in the first place. If guild holdings are not the local and regional markets wherein the owner of the means of production distributes his produce, what can they be and why would they earn incomes?

Rather, trade routes must express special connections to far away markets, rather like the long connected trade routes up the Rhone and then into the low countries through Burgundy and Champagne, where the fairs were so important.

Would I would like to see in trade routes is a disincentive to just link two provinces, but to get full effect of a trade route, link it to other linked trade routes, so that you get a Marsallies to Ghent route, or even a great Silk Road from the eastern Khinasi states to the city of Anuire. Great trade routes travel through hubs, great cities (and indeed the cities exist because of this trade). Nothing in the trade rules encourages or reflects these patterns.

Then there are far too few guild holdings, and in developed provinces, they would be nigh limitless. You havce merchants trading wine, and even beer over some distsance (but not ale, which is too perishable. You have linens and woolen raw goods and finished cloths being traded, salted or smoked fish, and numerous other bulk commodities I figure that guilder regents aren't much interested in. It seems to me that guild holdings and international or inter-regional trade routes deal with finished goods nearly exclusively, and rarities, and this is where the big money is. A load of charcoal coming down the Maesil in a barge to fuel armourers shops in Anuire the City is going to be a lot less valuable for it's bulk than high quality cloth, or arms and armour, but it still represents a trade route, moving a bulk commodity from point A to where it is needed at point C.

Every town or city of any size doesn't produce enough food to feed itself, and must import food, and in our game these represent in-kingdom trade routes, while the finished goods cities produce, good enough to be exported elsewhere, and over long-distance, represent the limited guild holdings and trade route slots in the game as written.

[AndrewTall]

Then there are far too few guild holdings, and in developed provinces, they would be nigh limitless.

It's worth remembering that the trade routes and guild holdings represent the profit margin on the activity not the gross income - the gross income of a realm is vastly larger than the income we see from the various holdings - the guilds likely only take 5-10%...

It seems to me that guild holdings and international or inter-regional trade routes deal with finished goods nearly exclusively, and rarities, and this is where the big money is. A load of charcoal coming down the Maesil in a barge to fuel armourers shops in Anuire the City is going to be a lot less valuable for it's bulk than high quality cloth, or arms and armour, but it still represents a trade route, moving a bulk commodity from point A to where it is needed at point C.

Whether bulk or fineware, if a good needs to be organised and shipped I would say that it is a potential trade route/guild holding - a guild with fine Khinasi glassware might only ship a few hundred pieces a year to make its money, but the merchants on it pay a premium to the guild due to the guilds ability to find buyers prepared to pay top dollar for the crafrtsmanship. The legions of drovers etc that feed the city of Ariya likely only pay a relatively small amount of their turnover to the guild that organises the markets, oversees contracts etc but there are so many that it gets the same income - you have two similar size guilds from a holding point of view although one represents a thousand times the volume of goods...

Most likely empty slots of guilds (even moreso than other empty holdings) represent not lack of economic activity, but rather inefficient activity which is almost purely local in scope. It's worth remembering how powerful an influence efficiency and local laws have on trade - a guild that soothes the local king into allowing some economic freedom and to set regular tariffs can be every bit as effective at increasing the local trade as one which teaches new techniques and provides seed capital.

[irdeggman]

Then there are far too few guild holdings, and in developed provinces, they would be nigh limitless. You have merchants trading wine, and even beer over some distsance (but not ale, which is too perishable. You have linens and woolen raw goods and finished cloths being traded, salted or smoked fish, and numerous other bulk commodities I figure that guilder regents aren't much interested in. It seems to me that guild holdings and international or inter-regional trade routes deal with finished goods nearly exclusively, and rarities, and this is where the big money is. A load of charcoal coming down the Maesil in a barge to fuel armourers shops in Anuire the City is going to be a lot less valuable for it's bulk than high quality cloth, or arms and armour, but it still represents a trade route, moving a bulk commodity from point A to where it is needed at point C.

This classification of guild holdings only works when things are broken down to the apparent level of detail that you have done.

Every town or city of any size doesn't produce enough food to feed itself, and must import food, and in our game these represent in-kingdom trade routes, while the finished goods cities produce, good enough to be exported elsewhere, and over long-distance, represent the limited guild holdings and trade route slots in the game as written.

You have specified such a level of detail that it would appear to require a computer to effectively manage these assets.

Have you delineated the specific breakdown of terrain types within each province? You must have in order to determine where (and what) food is being produced, and also other "assets" like building materials (wood, stone, etc. Are there roads criss-crossing the entire province to support transporting goods in this manner? Do areas get "farmed out" reflecting using up the available resources in the area?

How do handle income generated from these in-kingdom "trade routes"? Is it measured in GB? Is it measured in gp? Is it measured at all?

[ShadowMoon]

This is my reply on Trade and Trade Routes from the other Thread regarding this topic. Since that is my opinion I'll quote myself here, for the argument sake:

How about lessening the Trade Route (or even Guild) possible Income and Regency, and modify it's profit by regional situation (like available assets (roads, bridges, ports, etc.), diplomatic affairs (agreements, decrees, war, etc.), and geographic features (terrain type, culture, distance, etc.)?

Basically it comes to this:

Province Level = Available Guild Levels = Available Trade Routes
Guild = Trade in the Province
Trade Route = Trade between Provinces

Trade Route types:
Overland
Naval

Trade option:
Normal (legal trade, etc.)
Secret (smuggling, black-market, etc.)

We need to come up with tables for:
Trade Modifiers
Trade Income & Regency
Trade Upkeep

...

EDIT: This way we could have normal (better IMHO) trade simulation in and between any region without having to detail exact goods etc.

[kgauck]

If you mean that we should come up with tables and modifiers as a guide to DM's to help them adjudicate the situations they devised, in the most general terms, as a guide only, then I can agree such a thing could be useful.

If you mean that we should come up with tables and modifiers to mechanize the process so that the tables and charts are basically additional rules for trade, then I disagree.

I also think that the existing rules for guilds and trade assume optimal conditions. Further articulating the conditions should only bring penalties to guilders, not bonuses. Penalties should be "percentage of profit" so that the worst case scenario for an average role is break even.