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Thread: Speaking of Shadow Stone
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11-19-2001, 09:49 AM #1
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Has anyone crafted some juicy material on them? I believe there was more than one wasn't there?
"You need people of intelligence on this mission... quest... thing."
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11-20-2001, 02:12 AM #2
I think in the novel, the stone was referred to as THE Shadow Stone, a major artefact that Alies destroyed. However, I have always assumed that if you create one powerful object, someone is going to come along and create more, so using that as a base, I'm working on creating info for them.
Basically, they are artefacts, relatively unremarkable in shape or form, just dull grey rocks, but they possess the power to drain a person's lifeforce and then use that lifeforce to power a mage's spells. I'm still working on the details, but I will post the description when I complete it.Let me claim your Birthright!!
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07-14-2003, 08:55 PM #3
3 +0200, Ariadne wrote:
> If you ask me, we should NOT buy the 3.5 Edition, but wait till the 4.0.
> Three years are gone very quickly...
Heh. That`s quite true. I`ll probably pick them up, though. $100 for 3
years is about what one would pay for a subscription to maybe two or three
magazines give or take. Though I do find the need to spend this particular
$100 a little questionable, I`m not finding it so outrageous as to be a
complete waste. It`s not like tickets to a boy band concert or money given
to a political candidate....
As BR fans, of course, there is the little annoyance that it makes the work
of our intrepid update team out of date very quickly. The playtest, of
course, is just that: a playtest, so any 3.5 updates can accompany a new
revision, but it seems like it would be a good idea for there to be a 3.5
playtest before the official "official" version.... Like many folks out
there in the BR wonderland, I personally look at all this kind of thing as
source material and will take and leave whatever I want, but I can
understand why it might strike many people as being an annoying situation
in which nothing ever seems to get finalized.
When it comes to MC`s review, I disagreed with more of it than I agreed
with. I don`t think "subtle" changes are really all that much of a
problem, particularly since many of them are the kind of "global, systemic
changes" that he and his crew went for--but then didn`t completely
implement. A standard naming scheme for spells, for instance, is a good
idea. The complaint about subtle changes being bad seems to contradict in
large part his earlier suggestion on what the purpose of a revision
is. The revisions to various spells similarly seem like a good idea--at
least all of the ones that were mentioned. Generally, I have a bit more
faith in the ability of the people in the hobby to deal with the minor
changes in the system. At least, those inclined to memorize such things
won`t have any more trouble with this edition than any previous one.
He does make a few good points, however. While I think he may have focused
a bit too closely on the combat chapter reading like a miniatures game (a
process that his 3.0 version really endorsed, BTW) I do agree that we need
some sort of guidelines for how to play D&D combat without a table top. I
used to play just about anyplace and at anytime. It`s much more difficult
to play in the backseat of a car on a long road trip or while otherwise
away from home than it used to be. Being able to conduct combat "on the
fly" is a distinct advantage of a RPG and something that WotC has largely
skipped out on. There were other things he is definitely right on, but
they`re too many to count.
"Taking levels of a prestige class now apparently forces you to pay
multiclassing XP costs. Whether intentionally or by accident, the prestige
class chapter no longer states that they are free of this cost." That`s a
pretty big deal there, and given the amount of debate that the multi-class
penalty cost stuff has caused in the past amongst BRers it might spark more.
I did find it very amusing that he commented that there is "Still no good
guidelines for creating prestige classes, just more of them in the
DMG." That`s one of my pet peeves as well, though it does strike me as an
ironic comment given that he`s the gent who apparently penned a lot of that
chapter in 3e and let the original genie out of the bottle. The prestige
class system in many ways has just got a more serious version of the more
generalized ad hoc design philosophy that went into the standard class
system, and this is something that the designers seem loathe to address. I
do like it when they show us a peek "behind the curtain" but what we really
need to do is whip aside the curtain, and goose the little man pulling the
levers. Maybe even push him aside and start looking at the gears he`s
manipulating. I`m guessing they don`t because in that direction lies a
methodology that will ultimately lead to fewer texts since it would come to
a resolved "perfected" system sooner or later. That is, one that the
methodology reaches a sort of penultimate, "finished" state--a process that
most folks could probably point out in other RPGs. Some systems eventually
reach a point of finality in which the mechanics have had about as much
tweaking as they can handle and the game either fades away or goes through
a dramatic change that amounts to a complete alteration of the basic
premises of the original mechanics. Traveller is probably the most obvious
example of the latter transformation. That might just be my own little
bunch of not-so-tasty grapes, since I want a system of character class
design that could be used for any D20 incarnation not just D&D. Whenever I
complain about D&D`s class system somebody jumps up my butt like there`s a
golden tapeworm that grants wishes up there or something, so I`ll leave it
at that.
In a like manner I think several of the changes to magic item creation are
not a big deal... and might be "a good idea" in many cases. He does
mention several changes to the cost of magic items, but there still does
not appear to be a very intelligently thought out or articulated system of
describing magic item creation, however, and that`s something that really
bugs me. Ditto for the spell level system and spell creation. The decade
old Dragon article "Spell Law" is still the best and most thought out
articulation of the magic system extant. That`s a crying shame IMO, and
something that makes about as much sense as a Mexican screen door on a
Chinese submarine in a Frenchman`s bathtub crewed by Amish warriors trying
to find the lost city of Atlantis. It shows the systemic problem with the
worst aspect of D&D--the magic system that fell out of the lopsided pinball
machine that is Gary Gygax`s brain sometime in the late 70`s and still has
not been seriously revised since. (Please excuse the rococo prose,
discussing the magic system of D&D always inspires zany metaphors....)
Lastly, it might be just me but despite his paragraph on "sour grapes" much
of his review really did read like it was sour grapes. Maybe it was the
comments on who is or isn`t working there anymore or some of the complaints
that really amounted to mere quibbles leading to much larger and
not-so-well supported conclusions about "master" of the game and the
ability of afficianados to participate well, but most of that didn`t really
ring true IMO.
My problem with the issues regarding how D&D 3.5 is treating things like
half-elves and gnomes is that such things eventually bleed into campaign
material like BR. "D&D does it, therefore BR should mirror that" seems to
be thinking espoused by many folks who mistake "cant" for "can`t" when it
comes to changing things for a specific setting. Such things spark much
commentary on campaign specific lists. They certainly have around here,
and we`ll probably have to revisit the issue in 3.5 since so many things
better suited to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk appear to be right there in
the core texts. Again. Becoming a dragon disciple, for instance, is
apparently right there in the core rulebooks now and available to sorcerers
through that character class`s color text that connects them up with
dragons, so that (or similar things) will probably need to be addressed, no
matter how obviously such a prestige class is inappropriate for BR.
We`ll just have to wait and see,
Gary
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07-29-2003, 06:33 PM #4
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at 07:22:22PM +0200, Osprey wrote:
>
> TSR is engulfed by WOTC, who is then swallowed by Hasbro...
> At each step, the pressure for profit grows, and the wallets
> of loyal fans suffer. :(
Actually, I`m not certain that I agree. For one thing, no one`s wallet
has to suffer at all. The entire 3.5 PH, DMG, and MM are available,
free of charge, via the 3.5 d20 SRD
(http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35). If you haven`t
downloaded the SRD, do so! The SRD includes everything from character
classes to magic items, epic levels to planes, and spells to psioncs.
There isn`t any _need_ for anyone to purchase the 3.5 books - the
important material is all available free.
I, for one, am more than willing to pay the fairly low cost (less than
$60, including shipping from gameoutfitter.com) for the three 3.5 books
primarily to cast my vote _in favor_ of WotC producing exactly this
sort of work. 3.5 addresses many issues that everyone has made
houserules on and the "official" update helps address issues in a
uniform enough fashion that everyone can share/use ideas from other
players easily. For instance, we`ll now be able to incorporate into
the d20 Birthright Rulebook the specific planar terminology that
has been developed by WotC. It was available before (in the Manual
of the Planes), but now has been specificly including in the SRD, and
thus we can use it without concerns over copyright issues. In short,
I think that WotC`s buisness plan for D&D (even under Hasbro) is
one in which everyone (players of the game and Hasbro stockholders)
benefits. My biggest concern, honestly, is that D&D was making so
little money that WotC had to let some of their best talent go. I can`t
see how that is good for the game.
As an on-topic note, it seems to me that the new bard (although still
underpowered, particularly due to the changes in Perform) has made yet
another step in the direction of the Birthright Magician. I think that
the 3.5 Bard fills so much of the "magician`s niche" in BR that it is
hardly worth having a magician PC class.
- Doom
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09-08-2003, 03:28 PM #5
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On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Airgedok wrote:
> I have been trying to find this game for ages. I dont want to buy a
> 1997 game and they often dont work on xp machines now so paying for a
> game that has no tech support anymore seems foolish. I dont suppose you
> know where you can get this game for free do you?
If you don`t want to buy it, don`t play it. Neither the mailing list nor
birthright.net are for soliciting illegal material.
--
Daniel McSorley
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09-08-2003, 04:38 PM #6
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Airgedok schrieb:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=1907
>
> Airgedok wrote:
> I am unaware of such a program.
> I have been trying to find this game for ages. I dont want to buy a 1997 game and they often dont work on xp machines now so paying for a game that has no tech support anymore seems foolish. I dont suppose you know where you can get this game for free do you?
>
>
If you tried to find the game for ages you must have looked with closed
eyes. Ebay or Amazon list several auctions every few month. The local
stores might have run out of stock but even right now at Ebay are two
copies sold, e.g.:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=11050
bye
Michael
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09-09-2003, 02:28 PM #7As an on-topic note, it seems to me that the new bard (although still
underpowered, particularly due to the changes in Perform) has made yet
another step in the direction of the Birthright Magician. I think that
the 3.5 Bard fills so much of the "magician`s niche" in BR that it is
hardly worth having a magician PC class.
- Doom
Osprey
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09-12-2003, 10:05 AM #8
Most of my BR campaigns revolve around fighter, rogue, noble etc character types. Politics, war, love, and swordplay have their place.
Arcane magic, however, I'm quite reluctant to allow (this is purely personal preference I suppose). True wizards and sorcerers have I suppose, never really been PCs in any major camapign of mine. Magicians however, I could more easily live with - they fit much more nicely in with the rest of the crew.
So please, let the magician remain a viable PC class. the fact that he can't cast fireballs is what makes him greatly playable in the Br setting - which is more important to me than any ability to go up against high CR monsters...
On a side note...here is the difference between high ECL and high CR exemplified. The magician might be less powerful when encountered in a typical combat encounter (lower CR than an equal-level wiz/sor), but just as good (or better maybe) when it come to playability and flexibility (same ECL as an equal-lelve sor/wiz). Think on that...
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11-27-2003, 12:27 AM #9
No, I`m writing from the list. Though I did pop over to the site, run
Strongest Army through the search and the thread was right there.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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11-27-2003, 07:43 PM #10
Opinions vary as to why the Gorgon hasn`t taken over Anuire
yet. Personally, I like the idea that taking over Anuire and claiming the
Iron Throne is one of the "Herculean" tasks the Gorgon must complete in
order to ascend, so I`m not satisfied with the explanation that he is lying
in wait, "farming" Anuire for bloodlines over the centuries by occasionally
rampaging. Even if that`s not the interpretation one prefers then one must
speculate upon why he would continue to prey upon Cerilian nobles. His
bloodline is already 100+ (whatever that means) so what good does it do him
to continue to commit bloodtheft? There is either some other reason for
him not having conquered Anuire by now, or there`s a whole new level of
bloodline that occurs when bloodline score hits the triple digits that we
can speculate about. (Those aren`t mutually exclusive possibilities,
really, since he could be doing a little bit of both.)
There are a few game mechanical/meta-reasons:
1. He can only personally control a realm of a certain size. Even if his
bloodline score is 300 that means he`s got 300 levels of holdings and
provinces he can control. With vassalage, of course, his realm can be
larger, but we still run into a similar issue regarding bloodline in that
what`s he doing with such amounts of regency? Is there something that can
be done with that energy beyond the standard domain level?
2. Thematically, the Gorgon is the ultimate villain for the setting. A
victorious or defeated Gorgon detracts from the campaign. Therefore, the
Gorgon remains perpetually poised... ominous... but he never actually
strikes. The Gorgon striking is as final as the Gorgon being defeated as
far as a major theme of the campaign is concerned. Anyone who`s ever
played the BR computer game can probably attest to how anti-climactic it
was defeated the Gorgon in battle or in one of the adventures.
In addition to those, however, there are some more legitimate reasons that
one might point to:
3. Anuire is fractured, but nothing would be more likely to unite the
competing factions than a massive invasion from the most obvious and
traditional villain. (Well, maybe a reincarnation of Roele`s bloodline, I
suppose....) The Gorgon`s personal power is great, but if faced with the
combined powers of all the regents of Cerilia (some of whom are quite
powerful--it`s hard to picture the High Mage, for instance, sitting out
such a battle) he`d likely be defeated. Along those lines, a full out
assault on Anuire would probably not be against Anuire alone. Other
Cerilians would probably get involved--even other awnsheghlien might fight
him, jealous of his success--making a full out attack by the Gorgon against
Anuire a war with several fronts that he can`t win.
4. The Gorgon`s personal power can decide battles, but it can`t necessarily
win wars. He`d have to be able to consolidate his victories after the
battles were fought, and for various reasons (the limitations of bloodline,
the nature of his conquest, the speed at which the domain level works) the
likelihood of consolidating several hundred provinces is pretty low.
There might also be weird, personal reasons for the Gorgon`s failure:
5. One of the things about the Gorgon is that he is, essentially, a
failure. At least, it would not be difficult to apply that kind of
thinking to his character. A bastard, ill-used by his family,
over-shadowed by the accomplishments of his brothers, lacking the kind of
goals and guidance others have received, and finally passed over for
ascension himself when his "allies" at Deismaar took on the mantle of
godhood from the deity for whom he turned his back on his family, his
nation, his species and his birthright. His insecurities have inspired his
rise to power--but they also prevent him from completing the effort. After
1,500 years of spite, what would the Gorgon be without his hatred? If he
were a success he`d also be rendered purposeless. Elves are naturally
long-lived and we can suppose that their psychology is somehow geared
towards that, but Raesene may not be capable of dealing with the onslaught
of centuries of psychological torment. He might be so rooted in his
isolation and individualism that he`s psychological incapable of completing
his goal in life.
6. Azrai failed. What chance does the Gorgon have? Azrai was the most
powerful of the gods--it took seven of them to defeat him, but he was
defeated nonetheless. The Gorgon has not got that kind of power--and the
gods who defeated Azrai remain. Yes, they appear to be avoiding getting
involved in mortal affairs, but would that oath actually survive his
conquest? Probably not.
There are other reasons; unreliability of his own troops, his lack of
control over his current realm, a deficit in the "magical arms race"
between his realm and others (he doesn`t have the same temple holdings or
elven arcane casters who can create magic items without any restriction in
BR), etc.
Gary
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