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  1. #11
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    So you really don`t think that if the Pope could literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke the will of an All-Mighty God...and not only the Pope but Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the lowly Friar...
    If the Pope can summon angels, and he declares the Emperor Louis the Bavarian to be excommunicated, but the Archbishops of Mainz, Cologne, and Trier, who can also summon angels, argue that the Emperor is unjustly excommunicated, and in the right, why should I believe the Pope over the Archbishops? What if the Pope has also fought with the Franciscan order, bans the Franciscans, and all of them, lowly friars, continue to benefit from the grace of God and cast spells and sumon angels, and the Franciscans support the Emperor. Further, the Pope seems to be taking directions on at least some matters from the King of France, and learned people, such as Petrarch decry the Papacy and speak of an Avignon Papacy?

    There is nothing in the D&D rules for declaring that one orthodoxy is correct, and the other is false. There are rules that say that defying your god will cost you spells. But let's be eccumenical and assume that Protestants please god as much as Catholics, and in such case both have spells, both summon angels, both have all the powers one would expect of functioning clerics in good standing.

    Priests of Haelyn can be LE or CG. Both get spells, not only do they have different alignments, they can be expected to differ on the authority of priests over the faithful, the hierarchy of the church, responce to orthodoxy, literal interpretations of texts. We know that Fitzalan produced a significant theologiocal break with the Orthodox Imperial Temple, and both of them can cast Haelyn's spells and win his favor.

    I think ConjurerDragon did a great job describing why things we consider natural the medieval mind would consider miraculous and direct evidence of divine action manifest. So I'll just add that the medieval experience with religion was not about faith. Faith is a modern invention to answer people's need for a diety now that we can explain the natural world without recourse to divinities. The medieval world needed to explain storms and natural disasters, and the death of children, plagues, indeed anything out of the ordinary and many ordinary things, like death, that were important. These were explained by recourse to the divine.

    One's crops grow because God wills the crops to grow and feed us (there are Biblical texts which make this argument). Moderns believe that crops grow because water activates seeds which absorb nutrients and water then use sunlight to convert these into food, and grow according to natural laws. Its science. To the medieval the harvest was a miracle, and more so, the success of the harvest was a description of God's favor. A poor harvest showed disfavor, a good harvest strong favor. Then recall we must work in natural disasters and disease.

    As an aside, the landmark event that caused moderns to consider this issue in a serious way was the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, on All Saints Day while everyone was in church. To see a country's capital slain in church no less, to see the earthquake tumble the city, fires consume the city, and then a tsunami overwhelm the city, is a grave crisis. The old world view attributed this to the wrath of God, but moderns argued other causes, from the congestion of cities (Rousseau) to the arbitrary fragility of life and death (Voltaire), to more naturalistic explanations that volcanos and earthquakes are controlled by as yet undiscovered natural processes (techtonics and vulcanology are still way off).

    Using spells and class powers to heal people, summon angels (to keep with this example), and perform miracles is just a game mechanical way of recreating the ideas that the medieval era had of itself (directly, indirectly through its own fantastic literature, and more indirectly through our fantasy literature which is just an evolution of earlier fantasies). If people never thought that gods were real and made work in the affairs of men, we not play games that pretended that there were such gods.

  2. #12
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    But still, I cannot but get pissed off when people use fantasy Priest as a healer machine, or some spell slinger.

    Like:

    "Mommy, mommy I hurt my ankle! Don't worrie child Priest will heal you with Cure Light Wounds, you know, the one that resurrected three times ur daddy..."

    Bleh it's so Forgotten Realms, yack Oo;...

    Or even more lame, when adventurers (PCs) say; "yeah here is the gold Priest, if I die Ressurect me, and don't try to cheat us; use the True Resurrection..."

    ><;

    PS: Srry for the rant...

    ...
    Last edited by ShadowMoon; 05-12-2007 at 06:07 PM.
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Dcolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis View Post
    The real world is not black and white, but the D&D universe is.
    I think that rests very heavily on the type of D&D the gamemaster presents. Certainly Greyhawk & the Forgotten Realms are very clearly "Black and White". The appeal to me and to my players that the Birthright setting holds is the grey that a Birthright setting brings.

    Certainly the alignments are still there and part of the game, however the Birthright setting itself does not tend to overly reward the Extremes of Good nor does it punish the Extremes of Evil as in some published Greyhawk and F.R. adventures.

    The "If the player that drinks of the fountain is Lawful and Good they are healed...or...Cured...or granted..." things do not tend to have a Birthright flavor. The players having influence over kingdoms and their own destiny also tend to move the game in more complicated paths.

    Indeed being one of the Extremes in Birthright can make your path a very difficult one to tread.
    Good Morning Peasant!!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor View Post
    A certain Italian once said something to the effect
    that: "A ruler should always strive to do good, but
    have the capacity to do evil when needed."
    Exactly. A good ruler does bad things to those who try to do bad things to the people under his protection. IMO, saying "Oh, but that would be lowering myself to their level" is an admission of being unworthy to rule.

    The way I like to think of it is in the words of the Witch from Sondheim's _Into the Woods_: "You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right." The job of the ruler is to be right, part of which is punishing anyone whose excessive desire for niceness interferes with doing what's right. The fun part is that no one ever agrees on what right really is, so there's always plenty of gray area.

    Quote Originally Posted by dalor View Post
    We even tried one game where Alignment wasn`t used
    I never use alignment in any of my games. Never have, never will. Kenneth Gauck is the only person who has ever said anything in favor of the alignment system that didn't make me recoil in disgust, but even he has been unable to convince me that D&D has ever made of it what he sees as possible, instead relying on it only as a poorly-implemented role-playing crutch for the weak-minded.

    Indeed, given that the prototypical D&D campaign is dungeon crawling, which is properly defined as breaking into other sentient beings' homes, killing them, and stealing their possessions, all on the flimsy excuse that they are inherently "evil", is the best example ever invented of Chaotic Evil behavior. =) I'm perfectly serious -- I just think the irony is hilarious, too.


    Ryan

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor View Post
    none of us has ever seen the Pope speak
    with an angel any more than we have seen a wizard
    throw a fireball.
    And this, as I see it, is the crux of the matter. In D&D worlds, wizards perform miracles which are much flashier than those of priests, without any need to bring gods into the picture. You can even be a member of the priest class and simultaneously a vocal atheist, since all you need to do is acknowledge some abstract idea as the inspiration for your power. The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes miracles much less religious. Turning water into wine would be a big deal in the real world, but something you can get done at the corner drugstore in D&D. IMO, in a world where D&D magic was real, religion would be a whole lot less persuasive (or at least very different in content), because its claims to the supernatural would be merely humdrum.


    Ryan

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    And this, as I see it, is the crux of the matter. In D&D worlds, wizards perform miracles which are much flashier than those of priests, without any need to bring gods into the picture. You can even be a member of the priest class and simultaneously a vocal atheist, since all you need to do is acknowledge some abstract idea as the inspiration for your power. The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes miracles much less religious. Turning water into wine would be a big deal in the real world, but something you can get done at the corner drugstore in D&D. IMO, in a world where D&D magic was real, religion would be a whole lot less persuasive (or at least very different in content), because its claims to the supernatural would be merely humdrum.


    Ryan
    Not really. Priestly magic would be hugely important to the common man. Check out the priestly realm spells, like 'bless' province. A village priest would give a village a much better standard of living if they could merely cure light wounds, or cure certain diseases, human or animal.

    D&D magic is hugely expensive, but most religions who had temple holdings in provinces would be doing things for their parishoners that they could never afford as a service from a magic user. Priests in Birthright probably do more than any other class to prevent famine, and the other common ills of pre-industrial society than any other class.

    Magic users, on the other hand, in a classic D&D sense, and as outlined in the game tend to be two-dimensional , introverted loners who are secretive, and who hoard their resources, and generally set themselves apart from the common man. Now they don't have to be that way, and they generally aren't in our campaign, but they sure can be by a straight-up read of the BR rulebook and the Book of Magic. Heck, even feudal lords tend to look out for their peasants as a matter of self-interest, while realm wizards want them to go away so they can tap into the magic of the land more effeciently.

    I'd say they are mostly flash, with little real substance for anyone but themselves.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Dcolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    I never use alignment in any of my games. Never have, never will.
    Not arguing for or against alignment use here, I enjoy many different types of RPGs and most have no good/evil law/chaos axis just posing a question concerning your handling of those player classes that require the "Alignment Mechanic" (The Pali being the most obvious example, but others do exist).

    Do you install some "Code" of behavior, vows, etc.. or do you dispense with the alignment driven classes? I would be interested in hearing/seeing your mechanic/ Ideas on the subject.
    Good Morning Peasant!!

  8. #18
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcolby View Post
    Not arguing for or against alignment use here, I enjoy many different types of RPGs and most have no good/evil law/chaos axis just posing a question concerning your handling of those player classes that require the "Alignment Mechanic" (The Pali being the most obvious example, but others do exist).

    Do you install some "Code" of behavior, vows, etc.. or do you dispense with the alignment driven classes? I would be interested in hearing/seeing your mechanic/ Ideas on the subject.
    Hmm. I only ever used alignment as an NPC aide to indicate the general approach of people to dealing with others around them.

    I used a skill and powers type system to design a code of behavior for cavaliers, paladins etc - you choose the honor code that you follow and how strong it is and get compensated for it in other ways (i.e. the paladin had the right of holy justice, was unlikely to be accused of most crimes, etc). The PC could of course ignore the honour code but that wiped out the benefits if people heard about it. The beefing of paladins and priests to compensate for being god bothered never made much sense to me as it countered a roll-play advantage with a role-play disadvantage - never a good balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryancaverny
    And this, as I see it, is the crux of the matter. In D&D worlds, wizards perform miracles which are much flashier than those of priests, without any need to bring gods into the picture. You can even be a member of the priest class and simultaneously a vocal atheist, since all you need to do is acknowledge some abstract idea as the inspiration for your power. The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes miracles much less religious. Turning water into wine would be a big deal in the real world, but something you can get done at the corner drugstore in D&D. IMO, in a world where D&D magic was real, religion would be a whole lot less persuasive (or at least very different in content), because its claims to the supernatural would be merely humdrum.
    That's one reason why I liked birthright's magic rare setting - I wanted something closer to Barbara Hambley's works than the usual mage-fest, so I made both kinds of magic wielder (mage and priest) rare, and thus far more powerful when encountered.

    The standard BR setting eliminates any priest without a set deity - meaning that only the chosen of the gods have healing miracles, etc. It also eliminates most wizardly magic, or makes it possessed only by 'evil' beings (elves, awnsheghlien). That double whammy puts the priesthood well on the road to being able to prove the holy word to the unbeliever...

    Before the 'elf=fairy' lovers whine about the above comment, I'd note that human-elf history in BR does not encourage elves, and particularly elven mages, to be well thought of. The church was unlikely to encourage a more balanced viewpoint when writing the history books - the only other known mages aside from a handful of exceptions were the Lost - proof positive that all wizardly magic came from Azrai for most priests.

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes miracles much less religious.
    Considering both alignment and religion, both ideological questions, I think they remain important because ideology is important. People tend to act in consistant ways and these descriptions can refer to those guides. Now one of the key reasons that this thread assumes religious affiliation is because of the awe of magical power. I won't argue that, but will offer instead that these are not multualy exclusive. There is a god of battle, so martial prowess is not nearly as much in conflict with religion as it often has been because warriors and priests find themselves in competition, at least not if you can be a warrior-priest. Likewise with arcane magic. Multi-classing makes direct combinations less advantageous (at least without PrC's like Theurge), but there are other advantages to ideological affiliation.

    The warrior is taught about meaning, norms, and rituals that support his role and conduct as a warrior. He hears about courgage, honor, duty, and the rest, and this ideology strengthens his resolve and determination. He learns methods of mental preperation, hears stories of past heroes to stiffen his heart, and learns rituals that keep the ancient wisdom alive and meaningful. Some warriors get so involved in this that they become sacred warriors (paladins) but for others its the ideology alone that provides a context for their actions.

    Certainly a character could find their ideological source of inspiration from someplace other than the temples. The barracks might have its own values and purposes maintained by habits and songs taught from the veterans to the recruits, but that just amounts to a temple without the spells.

    So likewise a wizard could ignore the gods and cast his spells as well as the warrior can swing his axe, but what the temples provide is a cosmology of magic, warnings of the dangers, especially of the seductive powers of the Shadow, and a code of conduct.

    Its really just role play, and maybe the source of contacts, trainers, mentors, or apprentices, but an organization that can offer a worldview and back it up with power is going to remain a significant organization.

    See also this post,
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The temple is powerful because it provides three things, meaning, norms, and ritials.

  10. #20
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    Then you would have loved my Paladin monarch of
    Talinie who put the goblins of Thurazor to the sword
    if they didn`t get away during his conquest...well,
    only put them to the sword if they didn`t convert to
    the worship of Haelyn as espoused by the tenants of
    the Northern Imperial Temple that is.

    The doctrine "Conversion by sword" held very true in
    that game...and I found as my inspiration the many
    religious wars "in the name of God" that have happened
    in our world.

    It is my basic belief that no man is "Good" or "Evil"
    ever...we are just a blend of both and thus neither.


    --- ryancaveney <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > A certain Italian once said something to the effect
    > that: "A ruler should always strive to do good, but
    > have the capacity to do evil when needed."
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Exactly. A good ruler does bad things to those who
    > try to do bad things to the people under his
    > protection. IMO, saying "Oh, but that would be
    > lowering myself to their level" is an admission of
    > being unworthy to rule.
    >
    > The way I like to think of it is in the words of the
    > Witch from Sondheim`s _Into the Woods_: "You`re not
    > good, you`re not bad, you`re just nice. I`m not
    > good, I`m not nice, I`m just right." The job of the
    > ruler is to be right, part of which is punishing
    > anyone whose excessive desire for niceness
    > interferes with doing what`s right. The fun part is
    > that no one ever agrees on what right really is, so
    > there`s always plenty of gray area.
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > We even tried one game where Alignment wasn`t used
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > I never use alignment in any of my games. Never
    > have, never will. Kenneth Gauck is the only person
    > who has ever said anything in favor of the alignment
    > system that didn`t make me recoil in disgust, but
    > even he has been unable to convince me that D&D has
    > ever made of it what he sees as possible, instead
    > relying on it only as a poorly-implemented
    > role-playing crutch for the weak-minded.
    >
    > Indeed, given that the prototypical D&D campaign is
    > dungeon crawling, which is properly defined as
    > breaking into other sentient beings` homes, killing
    > them, and stealing their possessions, all on the
    > flimsy excuse that they are inherently "evil", is
    > the best example ever invented of Chaotic Evil
    > behavior. =) I`m perfectly serious -- I just think
    > the irony is hilarious, too.
    >
    >
    > Ryan



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