Bloodtheft

[blitzmacher]

I still use the 2e system for bloodlines, and bloodtheft. I love the 'there can be only one' feel to the game. A wizard's dagger can pierce a heart just as easily as a sword. I think only a stupid wizard would not know how to wear an opponent down with spells then put them to sleep or daze them then strike the victims heart. I also stick with bloodline point gets transfered not regency, anything else ruins the flavor of it. As for the gorgon having a 1500 bloodline score is a load of something or other. I think some people forget scions are few, and only the foolish would fall into his hands or take him on one on one.

[Mark_Aurel]

A wizard's dagger can pierce a heart just as easily as a sword. I think only a stupid wizard would not know how to wear an opponent down with spells then put them to sleep or daze them then strike the victims heart.

This tastes a lot of metagaming. It's besides the point, anyway - the point was, it's far more likely that a fighter will score a killing blow than a wizard. This assumes the regular D&D party dynamics.

The Gorgon having a bloodline of 1500 or so is, in fact a very real scenario, if you use the 2e rules, and the bloodtheft rules there. If the Gorgon kills about one scion a year, that's 1524 since Deismaar. Now. He doesn't have to slay that many, either, using the Rulebook. He has a tighmaevril weapon. If the average scion has a bloodline score of 20.1 (yep - actually, more in the old days), the Gorgon would gain about 10 points each time. So, he'd have to slay an average of 150 scions; you need also consider that most of his victims would likely have a higher bloodline than 20. I'd think he's slain that many over the years. It is entirely logical to presume, given those rules, that his bloodline would be 1500 or more.

That score is quite absurd, of course. It is simply a weakness of the system. The system in Doom's manual reflects better on this - and a statement given in the Ruins of Empire book, page 53, that the Gorgon "harvests bloodlines like a vintner harvests grapes" - that makes a lot more sense if he doesn't gain any benefit from weaker bloodlines.

[gav]

Thanks for the response.

If scions can use RPs it might give them a taste of what a Regent can do and get them intersted in becoming a regent.

It may also open up the possibility that Superstar Heros that collect RP from killing evil scions could use their "influence" to affect trade (by endorsing guilds), law levels (I won't rob this province - Richard the Bloodstealer lives here), or transferring RP to GBs (paid endorsements - I used to like him until he sold out).

Excellent plot oppertunities for regent PCs dealing with these pesky heros or Scion PCs to mess with the delecate balance of those in power.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

If I duel another Scion to the death, its moronic that every other person in the room, spectating, gets a piece of my glory. I'm confused by the mentioning of a party dynamic? What is this party dynamic, if I'm not mistaken, there have been parties since the dawn of RPGs and its always been a good idea to have a variety of members around. Besides, dividing everything equally just because more people are around reeks of communism. What motivation does the rogue have of putting much effort into the fight, if he's going to benefit regardless?

The Gorgon harvesting bloodlines is a possibility, however, that could just mean that he kills a lot of people. He could accidently kill them on the first strike alot, thus losing out on bloodtheft. Humans are terribly weak, and how many humans seriously think they are going to go through Kal-Saitherak (rough terrain) and challenge the Gorgon. The Gorgon have a bloodline of 1500 is ridiculous, quite like the 19th level fighter that gets to 20th level by killing 0-level child orcs for an entire level.

RPs are a connection to the land, not a direct manifestation of bloodline strength. It is explained to be an extension of your ability to rule. Not every blooded murderer has this ability. It also requires a lot of money to do anything, which is usually at the level of difficult to raise such and such amount.

[Mark_Aurel]

If I duel another Scion to the death, its moronic that every other person in the room, spectating, gets a piece of my glory.

Then duel him to the death a bit further away from those people.

Yea, dividing experience points among party members reeks of communism. Same thing with magical items. Why strive to divide rewards fairly in a party at all? So everyone can have a bit of the fun, maybe? The fact of the matter remains still - the original bloodtheft rules were pretty much made with fighters in mind. Not clerics, not rogues, not wizards.

The Gorgon harvesting bloodlines is a possibility, however, that could just mean that he kills a lot of people.

That's not what's implied in the passage I mentioned - it's implied that he helps regents grow strong so he in turn can grow strong off them. Why would people have to go to Kal-Saitharak? Does the Gorgon just sit by and wait for them? He could have them kidnapped, he could go down there and get them himself, if he wanted. Who's going to stop him?

The Gorgon have a bloodline of 1500 is ridiculous

Yes, it is ridiculous. It is *not* ridiculous if you follow the original rules to their logical conclusion, and do some assumptions that are not unreasonable. Slaying one scion every ten years isn't too high a ratio, I'd think. And even if you had him slay just one every twenty years, he'd still be at 750. Now, if he'd slain about one scion every _century_, he'd be at 150, from a starting point of 0. I doubt he started at 0. I don't think having slain just 15 scions since Deismaar sounds appropriate, either. So, going back to being logical, within the bloodtheft rules as offered in the rulebook, the Gorgon should be at 1500+.

[blitzmacher]

Why is it that people that do all the hard work have to share the benefits of their labor with others because those others where there and watched them do it. And why should I duel a character further away from others, are you suggesting metagaming. It doesn't sound like more fun it sounds like a bunch of whiny babies wanting someone elses candy. I think you overlook the abilities of other classes if you believe the old system was made for fighters. In my campaign a 1st level PC Sorcerer committed bloodtheft on a 3rd level ranger who had challenged him.
If the Gorgon can do what he wanted in original rules then why has he taken over the world yet. No matter what rules you use he should have the power to do just that, what stops him.

[Mark_Aurel]

What in the old rules stopped the Gorgon from taking over the world? Nothing. Nothing in the rules, anyway. There, is, however, a vague implication that he's somehow bound to his fortress. It's a pretty interesting question, actually, and one I've been pondering myself - it also applies to the other awnsheghlien.

In my campaign a 1st level PC Sorcerer committed bloodtheft on a 3rd level ranger who had challenged him.

How? A sleep spell? Unless that sorcerer had something up his sleeve, a 3rd-level ranger will generally bloody murder a 1st-level sorcerer.

I'm not overlooking the abilities of the other classes. It worked well for paladins and rangers, too. It did not work well for characters who weren't melee-oriented.

Let's examine it a bit:
-You need to pierce someone's heart with a pointy object. Rather like a vampire.
-How does the rules handle that? There are no rules for hit location. Oh ... wait.
-Called shots. Yep, that's it. Take a -4 or -8 penalty to hit the heart.
-Now, it's not just a matter of hitting the heart. It's a matter of piercing the heart as the killing blow. That requires knowing how many hit points the NPC has, so you can start hitting at the right time, unless every roll you make is a called shot to the heart...
-Now, if you used the -10 rules, it gets a little easier - knock him down to negative hit points, and stab him through the heart. Pretty heroic - mutilate the dying guy.

Is that how you handle it? You should, if you want to follow the 2e rules to the letter.

bunch of whiny babies wanting someone elses candy

So, if an adventuring party were fighting some awnshegh, and the combat went like - the fighter gets paralyzed in the first round, the wizard and priest pummels it to near death with spells, then the fighter's condition ends, and he strikes the killing blow with his sword (taking a -8 penalty, of course). The fighter did nothing, except strike the final blow, yet he gets the primary reward. Is that fair?

I'm not overlooking the abilities of the other classes. How, exactly, did the old system permit you to perform bloodtheft with spells? Wizards aren't about to foolishly risk their lives by jumping into melee with their daggers. Or are they? The big problem with the entire "wear them down with spells, then pierce their heart" is simply that you don't know how many hit points they have. It's a product of a poor system if you're forced to change your battle tactics around a lot just to gain what should be a nice little extra reward.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

The campaign setting is designed to be melee oriented. I'm personally a fan of people earning experience more by their actions, and less by killing things. Is it fair that the paralyzed fighter slew an unconcious being just because it was labled an awnshegh? Is it fair that kids roam around my school in the Porsches their parents bought them? I like the system designed around primarily warrior kings and backstabbing assassins. For instance, it is far less magical (which seems to be the trend in most of the threads on these boards).

Here a few reasons the Gorgon has not taken over the world:

1. There are a lot of people on the world. Most of them don't like the Gorgon. When the Gorgon becomes a personal threat, they will likely band together (at least temporarily) until the Gorgon is no longer a personal threat. The Gorgon is not singly more powerful than every combination of people in Cerilia.

2. You only get 3 actions in a domain turn, just like everyone else. Sure he has vassals, but most people are still not his vassals. Spreading out 3 actions in infinite directions is not recommended.

3. The other old Gods have True blooded individuals somewhere, they just are dormant for some reason. I hate the idea that only Azrai has any true scions around right now, its kind of stupid.

4. There are spells that lower magic resistance.

5. There are magic items >= +3 enchantment.

6. It wouldn't make much of a story to have the Gorgon be invincible, rather the nearly invincible.

7. The Gorgon doesn't want the whole world, he just wants to ruin everyone else's.

Other points:

Make a simple hit-location chart (maybe even only for the killing blow).

Following rules to the letter isn't very fun most of the time anyway.

Duels are often spectacular events (in the sense that they draw a crowd). Running, just because there are people around doesn't make sense.

If a sorcerere or wizard doesn't have something up his sleeve, he deserves to get killed by anything that comes at him/her.

Maybe certain spells should be able to perform bloodtheft if they kill?

Maybe its true that slaying scions who are much weaker than you is abusive in the 2ed game, sometimes, there must be suspension of disbelief (there's magic in the game for crying out loud). Perhaps long periods of inactivity (hibernation, etc.) have reduced the Gorgon's bloodline. Perhaps mismanagement has reduced his bloodline (he probably should have taken over Cerilia by now, eh?). Maybe he has some sort of item so that he can spend his bloodline strength on candybars or something(possibly some lotion, I'd imagine he has dry skin). Regardless, I'm not excited about the idea of every time a scion dies there is an explosion of some sort (fruit flavor).

I believe the mechanic has something to do with why his bloodline is so low. He can kill hundreds of scions in a year, most of them probably just get their heads chopped off.

Perhaps I do believe that stronger bloodlines should give off more power (one principle behind doom's system) and that there should be some sort of limitation against 'harvesting' tainted scions. Maybe a percentage of the bloodstrength should be released (I refuse to acknowledge an ability score to represent divine power, I'd rather have something with a bit different of an idea behind it). Then, that percentage has a multiplier, based on how much stronger or weaker the stolen bloodline is than your bloodline. Normal rounding rules should apply. Just don't tell me that there should be a big ball of regency, just because its nice.

Go 1st level sorcerers, beat those Rangers. (Go Rangers, beat Celtic)

[Mark_Aurel]

All decent reasons - number seven is perhaps the best, as it deals with motivation. I think the topic would warrant further discussion.

Following rules to the letter - yes. Make house rules to change the rules that don't fit you - yes. If the DM makes a habit of breaking the rules, it'll quickly lead to player frustration.

Duels are spectactular events. That doesn't mean most spectators want to stand within sword's reach. Most duelists tend to move around a bit - spectators move even further away. No one wants to get accidentally maimed.

Well, the idea that there's a release of energy when a scion dies - ever watch Highlander? You can be pretty sure that part of the idea behind bloodlines came from that. Also, the opening scene in Lord of the Rings would be a good example of what would happen if the Gorgon died. I mean, think logically about it - the old gods made a really big explosion (Deismaar) that split up their energies between lots of people when they died - why shouldn't scions that are nearly their level, like, the Gorgon? Why shouldn't scions release energy in a similar fashion?

[blitzmacher]

I believe the reason the gorgon doesn't have a outrageous bloodscore is largely due to pour realm management, it seems his desires have always been his downfall.
I have made no houserule that hasn't been agreed to by all the players in the group.
I do use a hit location table in combat, and each body part has its own hit points derived from the characters hit points. If the head or chest get dropped to zero hit points then the character becomes unconscious, in which a coup de gras could be done to the heart.
Everytime I think logically about D&D games I always get reminded that its a fantasy game. Maybe its because scions are not gods.