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  1. #11
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    --- Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
    > After his ascension we might assume a pretty big
    > temple structure
    > dedicated to him. He might not have as many total
    > levels of temples
    > as other Cerilian gods, but the Hand of Azrai might
    > be replaced (or
    > simply renamed) into something dedicated to the
    > Gorgon directly and
    > expanded considerably. He`d have his own priests,
    > and they would
    > start to gain spells in a way similar to the
    > followers/worshippers of
    > the Serpent. In order to figure out any of that,
    > though, we really
    > need to know what the Gorgon would be the god of.
    > From his
    > personality and background, I`d guess any of the
    > following concepts
    > might support his portfolio: envy, wrath,
    > battle/war, revenge, hate,
    > pride, terror/fear, earth, ambition. (Note: there
    > is no Cerilian god
    > of death per se, and I don`t think the Big G is
    > really any more
    > qualified than any existing god, otherwise that`d be
    > on that list
    > too.) Personally, I favor revenge, wrath and
    > battle/war on that list
    > even though battle/war is pretty well covered by the
    > existing gods.

    I had always thought he would be the God of Conquest
    (by way of both war and subversion), Deceit, Slaughter
    and Betrayal.

    Would fit well I think.

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Ascension for ol' stony
    Geeman has an interesting point - the Gorgon should need to 'do something' to earn ascension (particularly if you have the sort of players who might plan to ascend someday themselves).

    I'd say however that he's done the 'war thing', similarly he has rules a large realm already (the Crown + Markazor + Murkilad + Kiergard is very chunky). As to ruling the empire he killed it - that is probably enough to qualify as epic. What could be necessary for him however is to bury the ideas of empire - when he has destroyed utterly his brother's dream then he has 'won'. This might be done by, for example, tricking the heirs of Avanil, Boeruine, Ghoere and Mhoried into a place that they can be slain leaving the four remaining contenders shattered (and giving him one last bloodline boost), or causing Mieres and Suriene to declare independence, destroying the imperial city, etc.

    Alternatively you could rule that Michael had named one of his sisters / her child heir before facing the Gorgon - and the brute needs to identify which family the bloodline lies dormant in and claim it to complete his victory. I note that I tend to see True Bloodlines as 'different' to the standard inheritance system - rather than automatically inheriting the full strength you have to both be properly in tune with the old god's philosophy and have the necessary strength of character, etc.

    As an alternative to the Gorgon slaughtering one or more of the major families of Anuire (although that would of course have interesting consequences) he might need to do the moral opposite - claim the power of the power of Azrai held by the other major awnsheghlien... If he mowed his way through the True Bloodline awnies it would have a destablising effect across all of Cerilia, and not necessarily for the good in the long term as new awnsheghlien would likely rise to take power and several of the 'big bads' are not true bloodlines anyway. Players might need to slay the Raven before the Gorgon gets to him...


    Noble Council
    Hm, the idea of a noble council is one that belongs in 'interesting times' - I can't see it being stable long term - no governance by committee ever is.

    I can see an agreement after a long war or such-like that rulership would be shared with major decisions beyond the borders of a domain being agreed by the council - but that would really just shift the war from deords and bows to intrigue and deception.

    Of course the short time could be a very interesting one in which to play a game, and give even minor realms the chance for greatness as a large army is not required to gain influence.


    Chamberlain:
    The Dosiere's have a very strong bloodline - that demands a certain respect, for many of the regents of Anuire marrying into his family would give them the necessary power boost to consider ruling a large realm. It is also worth noting that he rules a very powerful realm - albeit only of one province. The wealth of the City of Anuire alone gives him a certain amount of power (particularly if you say that his court costs are lower than usual due to the existing palaces, etc).

    That said his power beyond the city could be none - he is ignored by other regents except at ceremonial events like the sword and crown

    It could be moderate - he is a trusted neutral third party who can be relied upon to make legal judgments on treaty breaches between realms without fear or favour

    It could be fairly significant with the imperial seal being necessary to validate a ruler in the eyes of the populace (albeit unlikely to be refused to the larger realms, but they would still have to pay him lip service).

    I think that the Chamberlains power would wax and wane with both their personal charisma and diplomatic skill, and the current prevalence towards violence. If most regents see war as the way to victory the Chamberlain can do little more than sit around waiting to be claimed by the victor, if most regents shun war then the chamberlain, as the nexus around which many intrigues will circle, can have a strong influence.

  3. #13
    Kalien
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    Noble Council
    Hm, the idea of a noble council is one that belongs in 'interesting times' - I can't see it being stable long term - no governance by committee ever is.

    I can see an agreement after a long war or such-like that rulership would be shared with major decisions beyond the borders of a domain being agreed by the council - but that would really just shift the war from deords and bows to intrigue and deception.

    Of course the short time could be a very interesting one in which to play a game, and give even minor realms the chance for greatness as a large army is not required to gain influence.
    Very true. The game could be set in that transition period between the council governing and the rise of a new Emperor.

    I also agree that rule-by-council is unlikely to last for extended periods of time. There are interesting roleplaying possibilities with such a governance system that, I think, make it worth giving a go in a game.

    Another idea I had (and posted a couple years ago) is that at some time after the death of Michael Roele, the Gorgon invaded Anuire in force. Only by setting aside historical differences and coming together under a single, unified command could the Anuirean lands eventually drive the Gorgon's forces from Anuire. Thus a new Emperor was crowned.

    The "twist", as it were, was that the Emperor ruled for life only, with the 12 Duchies electing the Emperor's successor - much like the later Holy Roman Empire. In between the death of an Emperor and the election of a new Emperor, the 12 Dukes effectively hold the reins of power (though limited power). The game could be set just after the death of the previous Emperor, with the 12 Dukes - and other lands - vying to garner support to become the new emperor.

    The thing then is to have sufficient DM plots to drag the game out for a while - most such "become the emperor" games tend to die within a turn or two of a new emperor being crowned - without the threat and plot twists being so threatening that they don't propel the swift election of a new Emperor to meet that threat.

  4. #14
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    kgauck schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3729
    > kgauck wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > ... you are disempowering the Chamberlain and all he stands for as well as the royal bloodline of Roele.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > I think the Chamberlain is an artifact. No serious regent cares what he thinks. I cannot even imagine that he pretends to some importance. Certainly there are idealists who form some legitamist party in Anuire, but it is difficult for them to produce a serious candidate, much less elevate this person to the throne. Given the age, this is like looking for the Merovingian candidate for the throne of France.
    >
    Or he could be the real-world counterpart of the Pope (without the
    religious background). The last remnant of the lost empire who safekeeps
    the crown for the emperor to come, ruling the empires capital as his
    steward.

    Certainly it would be difficult to find a suitable candidate - but did
    not the Pope crown Karl (Charlemagne) as emperor against the outrage of
    the Byzantines who saw this as treason to crown a barbarian as if the
    real emperor was gone - when the real roman empire had gone long ago?

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon
    Certainly it would be difficult to find a suitable candidate - but did not the Pope crown Karl (Charlemagne) as emperor against the outrage of the Byzantines who saw this as treason to crown a barbarian as if the real emperor was gone - when the real roman empire had gone long ago?
    Indeed, Charlemagne is a great example, as I mentioned elsewhere, for he has no connection to anything Roman. He's the outsider who claims the mantle of Rome. I rather think that the Byzantine position was that they were the Romans in question, not just successors of Rome, but the Romans themselves.

    As for the Chamberlain being Pope, I think it makes more sense to view the temples of Haelyn (after all god of rulership and kings) as being in that position. Claiming the mantle of Empire will certainly require the aquiesence of the priests of Haelyn. The Chamberlain can either attach his little spark to the rising star, or get snuffed out at first convienence.

  6. #16
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    If Gorgon becomes a God the "good" neighbour will be able to expand their domains,but after a decade the Gorgon's Chuch will be able to retake all the lost land and even more.

  7. #17
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vota dc View Post
    If Gorgon becomes a God the "good" neighbour will be able to expand their domains,but after a decade the Gorgon's Chuch will be able to retake all the lost land and even more.
    You are of course assuming that the Gorgon is awnsheghlien today and god tomorrow - if the transition takes a century or two during which he is inactive it could be very different.

    You are also ignoring the church of Haelyn - if Haelyn tells them that the Gorgon has ascended and declares holy war, how long will the Crown survive without its master to direct it? The Crown wouldn't be conquered - its population would be annihilated...

    The more I think about it the more I think that the Gorgon needs to do a lot of planning to avoid being wiped as soon as he ascends - unless you make the power of a god independent of the number and strength of their worshipers the first thing the other gods will do is launch an attack on his church.

    Ideally he needs someway to conceal himself from the other gods - or to leapfrog them in power, he needs someone to protect his church by leading armies in its defense, etc.

    He may decide to raise a new son/daughter - he can hardly ask the Drake back with an 'all is forgiven' after all but a new child raised in the 'right' way...

  8. #18
    Kalien
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall
    The more I think about it the more I think that the Gorgon needs to do a lot of planning to avoid being wiped as soon as he ascends - unless you make the power of a god independent of the number and strength of their worshipers the first thing the other gods will do is launch an attack on his church.
    I was thinking about this as well earlier today. The Cold Rider could avoid some attention by permanently dwelling in the Shadow World - not an option really for the Gorgon I would think.

    The more I think of it - helped by people's feedback here - I am inclined to ditch the idea of the Gorgon ascending for the PBeM. A Gorgon who cannot leave Kal Saitharak (or won't because he is vulnerable the further from it he gets) might well turn his attention to spinning a vast intrigue network which gives me all the scope for mischief I need as a DM.

  9. #19
    I hope this is not an unwelcome post... But as a curious guy, I was wondering whether you would advertise somewhere your nascent campaign, should you decide eventually to move along this promising project.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I wouldn't necessarily ditch it - you could say that the Gorgon has withdrawn within Kal-Saitharak or taken on stone form - leaving people to wonder what is going on and why - who would invade if there was a chance he would wake up? You could have several years with his chosen lieutenants striving to prove that they should be chosen to sit as his mortal agent when he ascended, banned from slaying each other they need to find other means of proving their worth.

    You get rid of the 'why doesn't he just walk out and kill everything issue' - as a ridiculously epic level character there is little in Cerilia that could actually stop him from killing every scion in the game if he so chose - but keeps the threats and intrigue needed in a PBeM going, as the PC's are fighting the lieutenants not the Gorgon himself - unless of course they invade the Crown and do enough damage to force him to set aside his godly intrigues and deal with them.

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