Cry Havoc for B-right

[Sir Tiamat]

As for equipment upkeep, I feel that equipment prices should not be paid only once, mainly for game balance reasons.

However, game balance aside, we could well imagine that plate would require a higher upkeep costs than leather, and what to think about mounts… Would a 1st lvl warrior with light warhorse, steel shield, sword and plate make ends meet by begging at the side of the street, while the simple pikeman lives like a king.

There should be a cost for equipment to the regent, either in increased pay or in an upkeep cost. The upkeep cost should be based on the price in the PHB because these prices are already balanced. I took an arbitrary 1/10 of the PHB price mainly because of easy calculation. Moreover this means that muster and yearly upkeep costs are equal when the equipment costs are half the unit’s quarterly pay. (lvl 1 war. 100gpof equipment; lvl 2 war. 250 gp)

I am not sure whether this is best and would gladly hear of better ways.

[kgauck]

The real cost of war is not to be found in the payroll of soldiers or is it related to their muster costs, though these are real costs and very likely go up in war as troops in garrison are usually paid less than troops in combat.

But consider, a medium size realm might have 1000 troops. In peace time they are housed near food supplies in castles on manors. All they need is to be fed, and the costs of getting food to them and preparing it are built in, because they are by the food and the castle has the means to feed its garrison.

However, consider the army on the march. A man consumes 3000 calories a day in wartime, and since he is getting raw foodstuffs (mostly staple grains) figure 2 pounds per man. The PHB figure of 1 lb per man assumes prepared foods that are much more costsly than raw foods. A wagon carries 1000 lbs, so our thousand man army on the march requires 2 wagons a day, or 14 wagons per week (a war move) to keep the army fed (let alone supplied with new shoes, clothes, weapons, tools, and so on). Aside from the cost of these wagons, which will wear our quickly in the hardships of war, we must move these wagons, and the animals that do so require a great deal of the food being carried. A normal animal might require 20 times the calories of a man. Two wagons, two beasts per wagon, food per day is now 2000 lbs plus 160 lbs per day towards the army. And the longer it takes to get the food to the troops, the more of it has been eaten by the animals who carry it there.

Consider also how prices will respond when war demand comsumes an unusual proportion of goods. If prices double, then the cost to supply the army doubles. Prices going up by 50%, 100%, even 200% are quite normal. The cost to keep your soldiers in shoes may suddenly go from the cost of shoes (made near your garrison) to 200% the cost in shoes plus the cost to transport them.

[Sir Tiamat]

You are right off course; however it is extremely hard to quantify these costs for game purposes. I reckon this is the main reason for doubling the costs of the Unit when it is not garrisoned, I do not think the soldiers get a double paycheck during war. We also assume that parts of the needs of any army are provided by the lands they are moving through. Moreover, beast of burden may graze where terrain allows it.

If we were to find a better way to measure these costs other than doubling the costs of a garrisoned unit, we should also try to change this in the B-right playtest. However, I think the doubled cost may fit these costs, without placing too big a burden on play.

It might be an option to require extra costs to any regent that orders legions through a province that greatly exceeds the province level, or when the regent goes out of his way not to burden the local population. This would make war even more costly.

[Sir Tiamat]

In my system a regent can field for 6 GB of muster costs and 6 GB of yearly upkeep cost roughly:

10 knights: 3rd lvl fighters on heavy warhorses equipped with banded mail, steel shields, lances and bastard swords.
120 Pikemen: 1st lvl warriors equipped with scale mail & pikes
120 Infantry: 1st lvl warriors equipped with scale mail & halberds
100 Longbowmen 1st lvl warriors equipped with leather armour, longbows & arrows and handaxes

This system implies significantly smaller units than the units consisting of roughly 200 men in Birthright. Taking into account that large units hamper play and become burdensome in the Cry Havoc system, should I modify costs to increase unit size? Or should my players accept the fact that while militarily Avanil is still the biggest fish in the pond, it is a bit smaller in a smaller pond…

[Panics]

Well... I would tell you to reduce cost. For the simple reason that usually you don't send ALL your troops to fight one war. There are still troops left for defense, so you could do small battles. Even if All your troops are on the battlefield, I would suggest to use "Heroes of Battle" to lay-out the ground. Not all units will fight in the same area. One might take up the bridge while they other goes around the forest. Making 2 battles...

On my last mass battle, I used this principle to split the fight. One group was taking the West Outpost, while the other was taking the East Outpost. Next time, one group will take the West part of the village while the other will take the East side. When they will come to the Castle gate, they should have reduced so that I can do one big fight ;o) When the Castle Gate will be open, I may bring the battle has a DnD adventure and they shall defeat (or be killed...) the Minotaur king !

I do like your idea of making the payroll per the XP chart. Rises the cost a bit. But should be like that ?:

level | Month | Domain
1 | 60 | 180
2 | 120 | 360
3 | 240 | 720
4 | 420 | 1260
5 | 660 | 1980
6 | 960 | 2880

[Sir Tiamat]

Well... I would tell you to reduce cost. For the simple reason that usually you don't send ALL your troops to fight one war. There are still troops left for defense, so you could do small battles. Even if All your troops are on the battlefield, I would suggest to use "Heroes of Battle" to lay-out the ground. Not all units will fight in the same area. One might take up the bridge while they other goes around the forest. Making 2 battles...

My current system would force players to break-up their units in smaller groupings, but I guess you’re right; bigger units would probably be just a playable. Moreover the players generally like to command bigger armies. Makes them feel powerful, more king than warlord

However, reducing the unit cost is not as easy as it seems. For I would like to roughly halve the cost but doing so would involve not only changing the pay but also the PHB equipment cost and upkeep cost… I could simply halve all costs, which would be easy but not very pretty

I guess it’s back to the drawing table

[Sir Tiamat]

I do like your idea of making the payroll per the XP chart. Rises the cost a bit. But should be like that ?:

Your price chart looks much more balanced: still the figures should be a little more rounded

[Panics]

I've checked back my Stronghold handbook and found something different.

a Warrior 1st should receive 6 gp per month
an Officer (War2) should receive 18 gp per month

calculating...

Level | per month | per month 10 individuals | per domain turn
1 6 60 180
2 18 180 540
3 36 360 1080
4 60 600 1800
5 90 900 2700
6 126 1260 3780

Method: (level*6gp)+last level

that's for NPC classes.

PC class start at 30 gp per month...

1 30 300 900
2 90 900 2700
3 180 1800 5400
4 300 3000 9000
5 450 4500 13500
6 630 6300 18900

Makes a more reasonable cost for a group of 10 fighters !... 19 GB ouch !

[Sir Tiamat]

But would these costs not include equipment… Because I am aiming to take equipment out of the costs and calculate them separately...

[Panics]

Really I don't know... would have to re-check the book but I believe this is the payroll without equipment. Equipment is provided by the ruler.

But as I stated before, I wouldn't include a maintenance for equipment and even there. Even if I would, it would be 1% of the equipment cost per month. In Stronghold Builder, maintenance for the castle is 1% total cost.

You could doulbe everything when in Active Duty.

So for a domain turn, War1 with Full Plate, Heavy Shield and Longsword would cost 333 gp (180+150+1.5+1.5) or... 330 gp