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Thread: The Gorgon

  1. #21
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    All we really have to make sure is that he can cast level 8 spells. However he gets there is fine by me. He was a great warrior and wizard ... what is wrong with mixing the classes into one?
    -BB
    I'm missing something, why does he need to be able to cast L8 spells? Casting L8 spells puts you in the top 10 tough guys in BR even without any fighter skill. L30ish fighter type should be more than enough for anyone surely without needing spell casting abilities on top.

    I'd see the 2e fighter+mage as just 'best and baddest at everything' syndrome rather than designed to give any benefit to the setting - at present in 2e or BRCS not even the Raven, Magian, Rhoubhe, Serpent, et al come close to him - he is better than them at both fighting and at magic. An omni-foe is great as a computer level boss, but lousy as an ongoing story and plot generator.

    If the Gorgon ignores / distrusts magic to at least some degree then that gives him a necessary vulnerability that could be exploited, similarly a magic wielding minion can be used for plots against other minions or even against the Gorgon adding to the potential for grand plans to be undermined.

    I would suggest that in line with some other awnie's the Gorgon a) doesn't suffer fools at all let alone gladly and b) considers anyone who fails to show 'the proper respect' a fool. So a traveler can certainly try and pass his lands, but Haelyn protect the fool diplomatic who forgets to address him as Prince Raesene or 'Your highness', or the poor merchant who pays the wrong level of bribe to the toll-keepers - but for the daring there is great potential reward in passing the Gorgon's lands.

  2. #22
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    An omni-foe is great as a computer level boss, but lousy as an ongoing story and plot generator.
    I've been moving in the opposite direction because of BR. This might fit under the what BR means to me, but I think the untouchable villain is more interesting than the "big boss" model. The computer games which end in a big boss are just carrying on the old dungeon convention that puts the dragon at the end of the dungeon.

    But I think the notion of clearing a dungeon is not a good model for a political game. One does not end the War of the Spanish succession, the capstone of the many wars of Louis XIV, by confronting Louis and defeating him in one final great combat. France was thwarted repeatedly, and I think you can make a case that they really lost. But France was not destroyed by Marlborough and Eugene (though Marlborough never lost a battle and decisively destroyed entire French armies twice), and Louis was never in anything like personal jeapordy.

    In a D&D version of some wars, there is a very game solution to just find the great rival, fight your way to him, and defeat him. So I think that an omni-foe is a good source of stories and adventures, becuase instead of just fighting your way to the great rival, one is limited to fighting his armies, spies, influence, and actions, while the great rival, being an omni-foe, is untouchable.

    The thing to abandon is the notion that any ruler acts directly, rather than having everyone act through subordinates.

  3. #23
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    I don't have much of a problem with the Gorgon being pretty much untouchable to a group of adventurers. The problem comes in with the D&D adventure-level stats being carried out to domain level realities where he could lead the vanguard of an army and lay waste to entire armies of foes personally. It does indeed create the question of why he hasn't personally conquered everything, or consumed the bloodlines of every high bloodline regent in the last years of their lives--as some sort of reaper that comes in the last decades of every old regent's life to harvest.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    He could lead the vanguard of an army and lay waste to entire armies of foes personally.
    It violates the fundamental principle that any ruler acts through subordinates, rather than having them act directly. Rulers don't do it because its terribly ineffecient. From my court, or capital, I can resolve many problems, but once I leave to go smite an enemy, the business of government stops. Mega realms (like the Gorgon and his Crown, Markazor, Mur-Kilad, Kiergard, or Avanil and his collection of vassals) should produce so many random events (or domain incidents) that the ruler is always busy resolving these. Darien Avan might run a decentralized mega realm in which vassals have authority to solve problems on their own, but the Gorgon, with his own will to absolute power, tries to rule himself, so cannot go around doing anything for fear that cracks in his realm will cause some un-addressed problem to spiral out of control. In this sense, the Gorgon is like any other tyrant- unable to let the realm out of his sight.

    So while the Gorgon acts directly at home, he must rely on subordinates to carry out his plots on the borders or in your realm, while the PC's can chose to stay home and send subordinates out, or go out and leave subordinates at home, but no one can do it all themselves.

  5. #25
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:19 PM 3/29/2008, Rowan wrote:

    >It does indeed create the question of why he hasn`t personally
    >conquered everything, or consumed the bloodlines of every high
    >bloodline regent in the last years of their lives--as some sort of
    >reaper that comes in the last decades of every old regent`s life to harvest.

    I think the answer to the question of why the Gorgon hasn`t conquered
    Cerilia can at least in part be combined with the other thread having
    to do with what the Gorgon does with his afternoons.

    First off, an objective look at the domain rules that exist with
    bloodline will reveal that there is a practical maximum size for a
    regent`s domain. Often domain size is pegged at bloodline score, but
    in truth there are just too many things to do at the domain level of
    play for a regent to control a domain that has provinces and holdings
    much over 60 or 70 levels. Within such a domain things start to get
    missed, random events (should) start piling up, and the size of the
    domain itself puts it on the borders or within contact of other
    domains, meaning the competition with other regents/domains limits its size.

    This is extremely important for the Gorgon because _he does not trust
    his vassals_. He cannot or won`t create a web of vassalage
    agreements that would appear to have been the basis of the original
    Anuirean Empire. Now, it is possible that this is a
    personality/trust issue on his part, but even if he were to create a
    vast system of vassals can we really imagine it reaching the size of
    the original empire without various forms of inner and external
    strive taking it apart? The Gorgon is the absolute ruler of his
    domain, but his domain has reached the maximum size it can under only
    his control, and he can`t trust others to run a domain in his
    name. They might rebel or they might simply act on their own in ways
    that the Gorgon cannot abide.

    We see in this perspective the answer to the question about the
    Gorgon`s time. His time is spent managing his own domain of diverse,
    unruly and obstinate subjects. The racial and cultural diversity in
    the GC and his tributaries is very broad and they remain united
    because of the influence of the Gorgon, but does that influence come
    without effort or time spent on his part? I would argue that it
    requires constant maintenance and supervision. He cannot afford them
    leaway or they will begin to exert their diversity and independence,
    so every little decision needs to meet his approval. That`s a lot of
    time spent in audiences, especially when one is as strict as the
    Gorgon. People do not speak directly to such a person, so his
    interactions are likely filled with the most abject of formalities
    and restraints.

    Consider also the problems the Gorgon has with external
    influences. As worried as other Cerilian realms are about incursions
    by the Gorgon, it is in reality the Gorgon who is surrounded by
    enemies on all sides, any of whom could attack him with political and
    social impunity. No Cerilian realm (that isn`t under the Gorgon`s
    thumb) is going to take umbrage with anyone who manages to put one
    over on the Gorgon. In fact, they`d be lauded. Of course, very few
    domains can take on the Gorgon directly, but his time would be
    considerably consumed by constant, low-level attacks and
    annoyances. He`s the biggest gun in the Old West, if you will, and
    every upstart who wants to make a name for himself, in addition to
    experience gunmen who might take more careful aim, will be out for
    him. Taking on the Gorgon would be a badge of honor for any regent
    and he must deal with such predations constantly.

    Then there are issues having to do with the Gorgon`s personality and
    tragedy. See, I view the Gorgon as a classic tragic hero. That is,
    a hero who is in almost every way exceptional and unbeatable, but due
    to some fault of his personality he is ultimately a failure. In the
    Gorgon`s case, he was once a man who by accident of birth was not in
    line for the throne. Bear in mind when you consider such a thing
    that he`d not have been the first bastard to take over a
    kingdom. Issues of legitimacy aren`t really the most important
    consideration in inheritance when it comes right down to it. When it
    comes to royalty in particular, legitimacy is much like history: it
    is determined by the victors. Raesene as the Anuirean emperor could
    easily be justified compared to any number of kings who have ruled
    much larger or smaller nations. Yet he did not. As a follower of
    Azrai at Deismaar, he might easily have risen beyond anything as
    lowly as an emperor. He could have been a god, maybe even the direct
    successor to the Shadowlord himself. Do the incarnations of Kreisha
    or Belenik really seem like they are more directly related to Azrai
    than the wizard/warrior who became the Gorgon? Raesene has at least
    as much in common with Azrai as those two, and I`d argue he had
    more. Instead, he was passed over--either through some divine
    process or not, who can say?

    So the Gorgon has been faced throughout his long history with the
    fact that he`s failed to be recognized and rewarded by his family,
    his people or even his god. Fifteen centuries of not being good
    enough has to have an effect on a person`s ultimate ego and sense of
    achievement, and I can`t help but think that is the source of the
    Gorgon`s true inability to conquer Cerilia. He suspects (and on some
    level may be right) that he`s simply not good enough to unite Anuire,
    or form anything that rivals the Anuirean Empire.

    Gary

  6. #26
    One interesting thing I read about in the 4E previews was how they wanted to make things like demon lords and archdevils "boss monsters"-evils that could be active in individual campaigns, and that epic tier players could meet and, eventually, defeat.

    Do you folks think the Gorgon and his fellow "Big damn deal." awnshaeghen should serve this role?

  7. #27
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The problem with this appoach is to balance how it is that one might fight a demon-lord, or the Gorgon, and still be only a great captain and not a one-man army. My current reluctance to see players powerful enough to face the Gorgon is that once they are that powerful the power of their realm is less significant than their personal power.

    As a foundational point of BR, I think realms should be more powerful than individuals by orders of magnitude.

  8. #28
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    You guys are right, the Gorgon should have his hands full holding his realm together. I'm still not sure he can't be a reaper of every old person with a bloodline, though...

    The biggest problem that D&D has is in realizing that even a great warrior is vulnerable to large numbers of foes. Every reasonable book you read has the most mighty of heroes fearing being significantly outnumbered.

    One way to accomodate this is to realize that once you have more than one foe against you, your attention is massively divided and your edge against the opponent one on one rapidly diminishes. Existing rules that can be applied here are to let every foe beyond the first give an automatic Aid Another to every other ally (+2 to hit or +2 to AC), accumulating. Flanking should be a much bigger deal, automatically giving 4e combat advantage and +4 to hit, a free attack of opportunity, and free +1d6 sneak attack damage.

    If you also make Damage Reduction either overcomeable by sufficiently high attack rolls or sufficient amounts of damage suffered every round, then even the Gorgon is vulnerable to an army, as he should be.

    The easiest way of saying this without having to get into the rules nitty-gritty is that no matter what level your PC's or NPC's are, they can be killed on the battlefield. If they really want to try it, let the units make attacks that no DR or SR or anything can defend against, and translate a "hit" into 50 hit points or something.

  9. #29
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    And Gary, you almost make me weep for the Gorgon. Though yes, I've realized much of that before, you put it in perspective nicely.

    I have thought that it would be pretty fun to play a scenario where the Gorgon is actually more LN and is actually pretty much the best ruler out there, and would even be a great next emperor. It's just that keeping in line all those monstrous cultures and so forth requires some brutality. In this scenario he'd be very civil and even honorable, you could treat with him (though the various human cultures would still shun you and him), and he'd be trying to work his way back into respect and eventual power, realizing that somehow he has to shed his monstrous skin first--hence his previous attempts at honorable combat with scions whose bloodlines he hoped might overwhelm his own derivation, his accumulation of tighmaevril weapons, his seeking of magic, etc. He just can't bring himself to worship the good gods--people he knew personally and were his lessers in life.I realize that you have to rewrite some source material for this, but it's not as extensive or far-fetched as it might initially seem.

    Perhaps defeating eghrsheghlien in honorable combat with a tighmaevril weapon (or at the end of their natural lives) and the accumulation of enough sielshegh gems and the casting of proper clerical spells might be his next plot to reverse his bloodline. Or perhaps capturing the Selehr could do it. Or perhaps he has to bleed himself out and transfer his bloodline to something else, then absorb a new human bloodline from somewhere (but it would need to be quite powerful to satisfy him--and then there would be the issue of destroying the item or polluting the land with an Azrai bloodline of 200+).

  10. #30
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    he'd be trying to work his way back into respect and eventual power, realizing that somehow he has to shed his monstrous skin first
    Combine this trope with a LE Chamberlain and its only at the end of the campaign when the Gorgon is dead and the Chamberlain has swept away his last obstacle to siezing the throne himself do the PC's finally realize that Raesne was the good guy and that the Chamberlain tricked them into combating him and finally destroying him.

    I realize that you have to rewrite some source material for this, but it's not as extensive or far-fetched as it might initially seem.
    Subverting the themes and tropes is far less harmful to the setting than it is to just ignore them and play a different game altogether (such as FR-ization). Something like this, which is just simple inversion of who the heroes are, is still very much a dedication to the setting.

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