The Gorgon

[bbeau22]

I always love these debates. Meta-gaming FTW. I will admit you got quite an advantage simply because you can use every book at your disposal while I am locked into a couple page write up of the Gorgan abilities.

By the rules you are right, but I feel if you have to take two of the most game breaking abilities to pin that Gorgan down. I hate forcecage. There should be no spell that can completely trap an individual with no save, no spell resistance nothing to stop it. It can be completely over-used by players and ruin good incounters. As you have pointed out, you could almost stop a god with a couple of spells.

I am of the same feeling with Acid spells. 3.5 came up with great idea of magic casters over coming spell resistance to hit. AC to combat physical damage. Then acid spells just ignore all the rules and do what they want. If any mage didn't have at least a few acid spells he is a fool.

As for him not invading the elves I have always felt that that Siebharrinn might have something to do with it. He made many units of the Gorgan simply dissappear on his last invasion of the elven land. One of the most power wizards in the land that has been changed into some sort of undead Ghost or Lich. There are easier targets.

For Anuire he needed more blood. If he killed every single blooded character then he would be topped out. By letting lines continue to pass on he can always come back 10-20 years later and cultivate again. As long as he left someone alive to continue to pass on the bloodline of each ruling family there would be another child to take from in 20-30 years.

-Brian

[Rowan]

I wholeheartedly agree with the brokenness of many 3.5 rules that are hopefully being addressed in 4e. (by the way, only the Orb spells I mentioned come from a different book, and they are all energy types--any conjuration spell has the no save no SR properties).

However, I also agree with the original posters that the Gorgon should not be undefeatable, implicit in your objections to my strategies around his stats

[bbeau22]

I like the idea of him being tied to his land. If you go to invade you are in a heap of trouble. But he is careful about when he leaves his country and goes back so a force that is able to defeat him can't be mustered in time.

You could do things like lower his caster level when he isn't in a domain that he controls the source.

You could also make Kingstopper tied to his land. I believe it is the sword that struck down Michael Roele and perhaps it had a permenant effect on it tying it to his source or domain.

Just some thoughts.

-BB

[Green Knight]

He's just a weeeeeee bit over powered with the current stats don't you think? He's more powerful than several demi-gods/avatars. I don't mean to be snarky, but was the original boxed set or "Blood Enemies: Abominations" book referenced during the conversion?

The Gorgon should certainly be powerful...but isn't this a bit over the top? If I recall he was a Ftr25/Mage 16...which should give him about CR 30...but does he REALLY need to be this tough???

[kgauck]

One nice thing they have done for class builds in some of the books is to include a character build at 5th, 10th, and 15th levels, and I can see where it would be useful to have a 20th, 25th, and 30th level version of the Gorgon, not because he changes, but because for some campaigns the 20th level version will make him beyond powerful, while other campaigns will require he be 30th level to keep the party at bay.

[Green Knight]

Sounds like a great idea to me...

[AndrewTall]

Sounds like a great idea to me...

I thought about doing something like this on the wiki, the trouble is the sheer number of feats, etc available now - do you stick to core rulebook feats? Do you use just WTOC feats, etc.

Another thought was that with 10-20 fighter levels, 10-20 awnie and 16 mage levels then it is very hard to keep him 'touchable' to mortals - frankly most mortals won't have 16 levels at all and giving him 16 extra levels puts him well out of reach even of champions under the 3.5e system.

My thought was that the mage levels are in any event superfluous - any need for magic can be provided by a minion and avoids him getting 16 levels or so of extra hitpoints, saves, etc. The drop also means that you can drop his intelligence to 10-14 - the most dangerous part of any long term foe is intelligence and cutting the Gorgon could be used to explain his slow pace - he is thinking through plans throughoughly to avoid being outsmarted

I then figured that good levels would be battle of mount deismaar, return to Cerilia, fall of the empire and current cerilia. (To explain the early history of the empire I assume that Raesene fled the battle with the Vos, and after he began to take on awnsheghlien traits fled to Aduria and that made these seem 'key points' in his development).

I figured that at Deismaar he would be a fairly high level fighter - say L15 (possibly with the odd level noble not fighter), on his return I'd make him L20, at the fall of the empire L25 and current day L30 (obvious rounding but it keeps it simple) with the majority of later levels being awnsheghlien in nature.

The issue then is should the Gorgon be built as 'general' or 'champion' in feat, skill, ability, etc selection. Personally I see him as a champion who wants to be a general/great leader but is hampered by personal failings and who has, despite his age, a very human/mortal view on life (for example I expect he has little understanding of the extent of the dwarven tunnels in Mur Kilad).

[ploesch]

Because of the Gogon's history, I would say he should be no less than 20th level to start, and then have him level if need be to continue to be a challenge for the PC's. He shouldn't have a 5th or 10th level version since he should be something the PC's would try to avoid until they were powerful enough.

[Green Knight]

I'd advocate sticking with just the core rules...and maybe adding something from other sourcebooks if it seems very appropriate...hopefully that little extra is OGL and can be pasted along with the character description.

Not sure the Gorgon HAS to have exactly 16 wizard lvls...I'd say that only a very high-powered version would need that.

[bbeau22]

I always felt a good way to keep his power down somewhat is to give him level in classes that cover two of his original classes at once. Eldrith Knight comes to mind that would cover warrior and wizard although not perfect.

All we really have to make sure is that he can cast level 8 spells. However he gets there is fine by me. He was a great warrior and wizard ... what is wrong with mixing the classes into one?

-BB