Avanil

[Thelandrin]

Europe in the 11th Century in Europe was still far from the Renaissance, too far in Cerilia's case. The Normans invaded England in 1066, bringing with them wooden motte-and-bailey castles and more-or-less creating modern surnames. I'd imagine that Rjurik is roughly akin to 11th Century Europe, but certainly not southern Anuire.

[SirRobin]

Indeed it is very much a matter of personal preference and perspective. Apologies for the OT but Birthright captured my imagination long ago and crops up again and again in my mind over the years. I've often pondered the differences in it's development to our own societies and how that would impact it's political and technological state by the "current" era that the source material unveils.

Honestly no comparable years in our era seem to truly "fit" all of it's aspects due to the different "historical" pressures it faced. Still, I find it entertaining to ponder.

Additionally, wasn't it the Crusades and the close exposure of the "Franks" to Byzantine and Islamic societies which helped draw them forward? Without the Crusades "Western" developments may have been slower. Lots of what-ifs.

Yet, as a matter of personal preference, I like to place Anuire's cultural state earlier compared to what source material indicated. The 1300's or later always felt to "recent," to me, historically.

[Rowan]

As for tech level, I'd look to the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) for inspiration more than to Western Europe before the Renaissance. There you have the remnants of empire in more force; state/church unions; deep, deep politics; and even a sense of the loss of imperial lands and recent conflict with the East (Khinasi).

[AndrewTall]

I'm someone else who prefers to have things set 'earlier', partly from a desire to cut down on armour class admittedly, but also because I prefer a lower population, more differentiation between technological people (dwarves) and others and wanted it to feel more 'gritty'.

I decided for my stuff ages ago that the Anuireans were aided in forming their empire by the fact that they gained iron around that time giving them a military advantage, more recently I was persuaded that it might be better if they simply made such weapons much better and cheaper to make with better quality iron and crafting techniques.

That said, given that I want very backwards people (goblins, vos) living next to quite advanced people I still needed fairly strict social issues to keep the tech level down. Also I shortened the timeline, making the empire last only a few centuries and the time since its fall be less than a century - a long empire crushes cultural differences, a long break makes it a vanished memory.

[SirRobin]

As for tech level, I'd look to the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) for inspiration more than to Western Europe before the Renaissance. There you have the remnants of empire in more force; state/church unions; deep, deep politics; and even a sense of the loss of imperial lands and recent conflict with the East (Khinasi).

Good point, I've often looked for ways to put a Byzantium style state between Anuire and Khinasi. But that is because I've been a Byz-fan ever since finding this book in a library decades ago.

I'm someone else who prefers to have things set 'earlier', partly from a desire to cut down on armour class admittedly, but also because I prefer a lower population, more differentiation between technological people (dwarves) and others and wanted it to feel more 'gritty'.

I decided for my stuff ages ago that the Anuireans were aided in forming their empire by the fact that they gained iron around that time giving them a military advantage, more recently I was persuaded that it might be better if they simply made such weapons much better and cheaper to make with better quality iron and crafting techniques.

That said, given that I want very backwards people (goblins, vos) living next to quite advanced people I still needed fairly strict social issues to keep the tech level down. Also I shortened the timeline, making the empire last only a few centuries and the time since its fall be less than a century - a long empire crushes cultural differences, a long break makes it a vanished memory.

Well the main thing I've always done was assume that the history given in original material is, mostly, a lie. Well, propaganda would be a better word for it I guess. Basically historical revisionism propagated by the "current" ruling classes to justify their position within society.

You have an empire that lasts for around nine centuries, then the "current" time frame takes place five centuries after that. This gives the ruling classes, and their patsies, at least five hundred years to create their own version of previous events. Of course some of it is true, but most of it is either a very "creative" interpretation of actual events or outright fabrication.

Personally, I always placed the twelve duchies' creation near the end of the empire, not around its beginning. The early Anuirean Empire was actually much closer to our historical Roman Empire. Instead of Barbarian Invasions being a major part of its collapse, the Gorgon's frequent assaults finally (along with plague) brought about the Anuirean Empire's decline and fall.

"The Last Emperor's" death was merely the final nail in the coffin. Indeed, the "modern" Anuireans are as closely related (racially) to the Rjurik, Vos, Khinasi, and even Adurian natives as they are to the "original" Anuireans. The second half of the Anuirean Empire's history saw greater and greater numbers of foreign mercenaries being imported to keep the Gorgon contained.

These imports, over the centuries, supplanted the original Graeco-Roman like society and, along with a plague or two, brought about the rise of Feudalism. By the empire's last century or two the Anuire we see in published material had been born.

Apologies for the rambling, just my interpretation.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I was about to say you only need a single generation to have whatever history you want to have happened become accepted as what did happen, but decided on reflection that actually this often happens after 5 minutes anyway...

Although there would have been some merchant and troop movements, it takes a lot of people to move population genetics - you can do it with conquerors who impregnate every female in sight (think latin america, norman england), but if its mainly 1:1 then even centuries of moderate mingling will not cause signficant genetic shift (apart from anything else the 'hybrids' tend to interbreed as they have similar social position). Also both administrative, troop and merchant movements would be more likely to spread Anuirean genes into other populations than the converse. As such I'd expect that the Anuireans are as distinct as anyone else if not more so, something doubly true for the aristocracy where breeding 'out' would have been breeding 'down'.

[SirRobin]

True, but it's along the lines of what I was thinking. As far as the aristocracy I figure it is, now, even less Anuirean. The rulers at the end of the empire were descendants of mostly "imported" armies. Over a few centuries the mercenaries ended up running the show.

Plagues on a "Black Death" scale, along with brutal assaults by the Gorgon, greatly depleted the empire's manpower reserves around the fifth century. Anuire began importing large numbers of mercenaries, even entire tribes, in order to keep the Gorgon at bay. As an aside it gives some new purpose to the Anuirean colonies. They may have started as projections of imperial might and economic power, but they ended up being recruiting areas.

I figure four centuries would have been plenty of time for the "barbarians" to supplant, to a degree, the original Anuirean culture and race. It only took a few centuries for it to happen to the western half of the Roman Empire. While other factors were involved, of course, I figure similar factors were also involved in Anuire. Additionally the "fear" of the Gorgon ended up keeping the empire, relatively, united except for the occasional civil war. Otherwise the capitol would likely have been sacked and the emperor deposed before the last one had a chance to croak heroically.

Instead of "Barbarian Invasions," you might call it "Barbarian Invitations." Gives it a closer resemblance to the fate of the Roman Empire in Western Europe.

I also figure the only reason the Gorgon did not end up conquering Anuire was that, in his mind, he'd already won. Anuirean desperation to stop him brought about the ruin of the society, and people, that created the empire in the first place. It was no longer the Anuire that "he" remembered and wanted to destroy. Once the "Last Emperor" delivered himself on a silver platter... Well, that was it really, the last remnant of the "world" he grew up in was gone.

Apologies, but going that route with Anuirean history just feels right to me.

It even lets me slide the "Aquitainia" and "Eleanor" type storyline in as had been proposed. However, in this case, they are actually truer to the "original" Anuirean Empire, socially/culturally/etc... than it's present occupants. Adds a bit of irony.

[Rowan]

There's nothing wrong with your versions of Anuire, of course. They do require a fair bit of revision, however.

I'm not sure what, other than technology level, should seem surprising or incongruous about the default setting material, however. And a fairly static technology level can be explained by the presence of arcane and divine magic, divine bloodlines, and differences in physics.

However, you need not go that far. If you're looking for historical parallels, the 2-3,000 years of history covering the human migrations to Cerilia are not very problematic at all.

Consider the many, many ancient empires in our own world, some of which were enduring. I don't have dates off the top of my head, but you've got the Han or Chin dynasties (a millenia?) at the most enduring. There are old Indian dynasties as well, but if you're looking for nearer Europe, you've got Ur, Babylon, Egypt, the Assyrians, Medes, Persians (many centuries), Greece, Rome, Corinth, Byzantium/Eastern Roman Empire. All of these lasted quite a while and controlled large expanses; many even had quite huge populations, very large cities (hundreds of thousands of people in them), and population densities comparable to Renaissance Europe.

If you want to provide historic parallels, Roele fits as Julius Caesar or any number of Roman heroes, setting the Empire on a timeline that could easily last 900 years and have 5 centuries more of lasting impact and longing for Empire (whether you take the Byzantine approach or recall the Holy Roman Empire's titular dreams farther west). That gets you from Roman tech to any level of Renaissance tech, and gives the Anuireans the most significant technology at the time they forged their empire. It also still gives them iron and considerable military history during the War of Shadow.

Step back your timeline a few more centuries and Roele was the Alexander the Great of his time, only he lived long enough to consolidate his gains and create a more lasting empire.

The three empires I like to look at in parallel yield different thematic interpretations of the Birthright setting while still permitting virtually all of setting timeline, assumptions, and material to remain intact:
1. Western Roman Empire--the most common analogue, withers to barbarian "invitation" as you aptly put, leaves remnants longing for what they had for centuries but keeps them suppressed under constant attacks for a few centuries (maybe the Gorgon is the Huns, Vikings and Tartars of the times)
2. Eastern Roman Empire--retains much of its strength, learning, technology, devolves under internal struggles among power players and loses farther reaches to gradual rebellion and decay, a hotbed of intrigue and money that still remains powerful for quite some time (I think this is the most accurate analogue)
3. Alexandrian Empire--held together by the Roele dynasty, it fragments gradually as conquered peoples and competing dukes/viceroys/generals chip break away the other conquered tribes; tech level may be a little lower, but mainly in things like castle and shipbuilding and full plate armor; most other tech would remain recognizeable

[SirRobin]

The Eastern Roman Empire may indeed be the best analogy but I prefer the Western Roman Empire. Just a matter of personal taste. Sort of Michael's death heralding the "Dark Ages" beginning. Similar to a Fifth Century AD and placing the "current" date around the Tenth or Eleventh Century AD.

I guess what bothered me about the original material was how "stable" it seemed. Nine-ish centuries is a long time for a stable state with active internal and external enemies, like the Gorgon, Spiderfell, etc... The original material felt very much like "Roele came, conquered, and everyone lived happily ever after." Of course there were conflicts and problems but they just didn't feel as big, to me, as they should have.

It also doesn't answer how a state controlled for as long as Anuire was gave birth to, or kept all along, a feudal society. Then there was the abnormally low population figures which seemed to hint at a major plague or ongoing state of bloody, and widespread, warfare which the original material hinted at being a thing of the past.

Maybe I was just reading it wrong but it is what got my restless mind going. I've often surmised that the first half of the Anuirean Empire was actually the Anuirean Republic.

An Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar analogy to Roele might fit but his achievements don't seem to really measure up to me. Yeah, its just a personal interpretation thing for me.