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Thread: Avanil

  1. #41
    Senior Member Dcolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMoon View Post
    Slightly-Off Topic:

    I never understood how Boeruine got away with this, I mean its a terribile stain on their name, especially now when the "myth" of the great Empire is something that makes Anuirean hearts swell with pride.
    I think that the Chaos following the Gorgons destruction of the Roeles may have aided the lines survival.

    Also that a Roele was involved in the whole affair may have meant a more leanient stance was taken in order to "Save Face".

    As to the stain on the name, certainly Beoruines political position vs. Avans is one that is behind the curve in relation to allies, cash and regency. Maybe his "name" and families past deeds remain an impediment in acheiving his goals.

    Perhaps the Archdukes reputation for never forgetting aide rendered or forgiving an injury is a response to his families name?

    It certainly appears that the only course open to him is conquest, where as Avan has many many ways to gain the crown.

    Speaking first hand as my current incarnation of the setting just concluded a massive war between Beoruine and Avan, if Avan keeps his allies he may loose initial ground and nearly any battle in which Beoruine has personal command.

    However soon (4-6 war moves) Avans Gold begins to bear wght against Beoruine.

    The Actions of my players (Very aggresive little cuss's that were using the two superpowers distraction with one another to make a land grab of their own) changed the political playing field and a settlement was reached.

    Of course the question has just been postponed and I am sure the ArchDuke and the Prince will be tussling again soon.
    Good Morning Peasant!!

  2. #42
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Regarding some of the above points it's worth remembering that a) gratitude is fleeting, resentment of taxation endures and b) the Roele family tree will not be a straight line but a series of entwined trees.

    Roele will have had several children - it's one of the most necessary duties of a king let alone an emperor. One of these - possibly but not necessarily the eldest will have become emperor. The others (with very high and possibly true bloodlines) will have married Boruine, Mhor, etc, etc. After 1-2 generations EVERYONE has an equal claim to divine right to rule (and quite a few should have a true bloodline, but let's not go there).

    In Birthright the idea of primogeniture takes a hammering due to the mechanics of bloodline inheritance. Remember that the kids average mom and dad in 2e, but 1 or 2 of them will get an inheritance boost when mom and dad pass on.

    If they pick child # 3 to inherit then child #1 will have a substantially inferior bloodline - and may well struggle to take control against #3 (and even if the parents choose child 1 to prevent power-plays, if they truly support #3 and #1 is opposed to the bloodline philosophy the land's choice may make #3 heir in any event).

    I would expect therefore that in BR the 'natural' heir to the throne is the child who inherits the greater bloodline - not just the first out.

    That means however that a) being nice to mom and dad is v important for a noble as it determined who inherited the bloodline not just the land and b) when kids #3 and #1 turn up ruling the empire and Boeruine respectively, #1 has just as much family claim to Haelyn as #1 - it was the parent's choice who got which land, Boeruine is not so much rebelling against the natural order when he rebels shortly before the fall of the empire, but having a vigorous family row.

    I realise that you have to 'make space' for the Roele's lands if you want them, or make Avanil the old lands of the Roele family, but I would note that even if the emperor holds law holdings across Anuire (much like Avan today), the income is low and the bloodline at a disadvantage in a fight - one turn of occupation and any duke can kick out the Roele's - it doesn't impact the game much to say that the Roele's held land, but does add some history (the ancient hunting lodge ordered sealed by imperial command and long forgotten) and verisimilitude.

  3. #43
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    If one considers historical models, every split creates partisans on both sides. People don't rebel against their soveriegn because they are nothing but bold, naked ambition (well every century might throw up one or two such figures, but rebellions are far more common than that) they take up arms because they have a just cause.

    We as observers may sympathize with one party or the other, may find their quarrel petty, or we may find the whole issue opaque. But one guide to the potency of a grievance is how the followers behave.

    A leader will not generally run off without his followers. The followers have an opportunity to endorse a grievance, cause, or perception of events, and this can temper a ruler or encourage him to action.

    If Boeruine lead a rebellion against the Emperor, then it was because he had a grievance he believed was just and this was a cause that won him support among his followers. Its also possible that some folks today believe that the injustice perpetrated by Micheal Roele against Boeruine was enough to cause Haelyn to withold his favor when it came time to face the Gorgon.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    If one considers historical models, every split creates partisans on both sides. People don't rebel against their soveriegn because they are nothing but bold, naked ambition (well every century might throw up one or two such figures, but rebellions are far more common than that) they take up arms because they have a just cause.

    We as observers may sympathize with one party or the other, may find their quarrel petty, or we may find the whole issue opaque. But one guide to the potency of a grievance is how the followers behave.

    A leader will not generally run off without his followers. The followers have an opportunity to endorse a grievance, cause, or perception of events, and this can temper a ruler or encourage him to action.

    If Boeruine lead a rebellion against the Emperor, then it was because he had a grievance he believed was just and this was a cause that won him support among his followers. Its also possible that some folks today believe that the injustice perpetrated by Micheal Roele against Boeruine was enough to cause Haelyn to withold his favor when it came time to face the Gorgon.
    The problem is the Boeruine did not lead a rebellion against the Emperor. He used the death of Michael's father to push forth a claim on the throne, orchestrated (or attempted to) the death of Michael, and allied with goblins to further his claim (claimed goblins killed Michael then allied with them against Michael when he was still alive.)

    Based on the books, House Boeruine had the strongest claim after Michael died (because the dolt forgave them) but because Laera Roele allied with the Gorgon and her children *might* have been the spawn of the Gorgon (remember Laera's little frolic with the Gorgon in IT) are probably the reasons they didn't assume the throne right after Michael's death. Though Boeruine may have been able to hide that, the fact that Laera was buried in an unmarked grave and that the reason for war was what the Gorgon had done, attempting to hide at least Laera's role in the whole affair as very, very difficult.

    Also, I am not sure if there is such a proliferation of descendants of Roele or many that have the Roele bloodline, simply because the next in line for the throne after Michael was Boeruine. It is not uncommon or inconceivable that extra male children of the current Emperor were removed from inheriting, either through being cloistered in the priesthood, have "accidents" or given a chance to prove themselves on the front (and get themselves killed.)

    It is also highly possible that the Roele line creates more female offspring than male (hence why Michael had seven sisters.) There is also the possibility with healing magic being more prevalent that having multiple sons was not as common since the chance of them dieing to a childhood disease was almost eliminated.

    The addition of divine magic and ruling by a bloodline directly related to a god changes the game. In addition, depending on whether you play 2nd Edition (where the bloodline itself determines your ability to lead and gather regency) or BRCS (where skill and bloodline determines your ability to lead and gather regency) will probably also change the factors for why something happened.

  5. #45
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    Just to remind that Aedan Dosiere was was always few feets away from Michael Roele, he knew about Boeruine trachery...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  6. #46
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis View Post
    The problem is the Boeruine did not lead a rebellion against the Emperor. He used the death of Michael's father to push forth a claim on the throne, orchestrated (or attempted to) the death of Michael, and allied with goblins to further his claim (claimed goblins killed Michael then allied with them against Michael when he was still alive.)
    That's a rebellion. And I'm sure it had plenty of political context. The differences between Lancaster and York involved differences in policy. The differences between Plantagenet and Valois involved differences in policy, in governing style, and implied significant changes in many parts of goverment. The great Imperial contenders of the 14th century, Wittelsbach, Luxemburg, and Habsburg each offered different politics, diplomacy, and traditions.

    When Henry of Bolingbroke deposed his cousin, Richard II, it was almost entirely political. Henry, was leader of the faction so long associated with Lancaster, dating to Thomas and Henry (of Grosmont), royalist, pro-Canterbury and suspicious of the Avignon Papacy, connected to Spanish politics with an eye to an expansion of the war in France, and of course the great bard of the age, Chaucer, was a Lancasterian. (some say he was assasinated in political dealings)

    Richard was a sucessor to his father's politics, pro-papal, favoring the neutrality of other powers in the Hundred Years War, and indeed peace in France, something new. Also new were interests in architecture, art, and religion.

    I have no doubt that around so great a prince as Boeruine, or indeed the House of Boeruine, an alternative politics would spring up as those differing with the crown seek the protection of a great man, and the great man looks for issues to work on the crown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis
    Also, I am not sure if there is such a proliferation of descendants of Roele or many that have the Roele bloodline, simply because the next in line for the throne after Michael was Boeruine.
    Its not a question of Micheal's decendents, its a question of his father's and grandfathers, and so on, their decendents. The real question is, how many cousins does Micheal have.

    It is also highly possible that the Roele line creates more female offspring than male (hence why Michael had seven sisters.)
    This is the ideal case for the argument that the dukes are closely related to the Roele line, because many of their mothers' were Roele princesses. Under such conditions it would not take very long before Boeruine had as much Roele blood as someone with the surname of Roele.

  7. #47
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 04:49 PM 5/11/2007, kgauck wrote:

    >If Boeruine lead a rebellion against the Emperor, then it was
    >because he had a grievance he believed was just and this was a cause
    >that won him support among his followers.

    We shouldn`t overlook the influence of naked ambition legitimized by
    some grievance for public consumption. The Archduke might even be
    able to convince himself that his true motive is the grievance rather
    than his lust for power. (I`ll grit my teeth and refrain from any
    modern examples....)

    Gary

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    At 04:49 PM 5/11/2007, kgauck wrote:

    >If Boeruine lead a rebellion against the Emperor, then it was
    >because he had a grievance he believed was just and this was a cause
    >that won him support among his followers.

    We shouldn`t overlook the influence of naked ambition legitimized by
    some grievance for public consumption. The Archduke might even be
    able to convince himself that his true motive is the grievance rather
    than his lust for power. (I`ll grit my teeth and refrain from any
    modern examples....)

    Gary
    There was no grievance, or more concisely, that was not the reason Boeruine gave for his claim to the throne. He orchestrated Michael's death (which failed) and claimed that Michael was not Michael, but a doppleganger or fake (made even more believable by the fact that with magic, it could happen.) He even began to believe it because a) he thought his plan succeeded and b) the Gorgon was most likely manipulating him through Boeruine's court mage.

    His followers believed that Boeruine was the rightful heir, right up until Michael killed him and Boeruine's son bent knee, acknowledge Michael as Michael and this the rightful Emperor, and all of Boeruine's cronies got to marry a Roele. The Iron Throne is an interesting read, less for plot, but more for background information on how Michael died. My reading of it lead me to believe that Boeruine's claim was special, most likely because as powerful a vassal as he was, a previous Emperor attempted to keep in line through marriage. And that Michael's marrying off his sisters to Duke's was unprecedented (both in how to deal with Boeruine's cronies but also in the fact they were marrying dukes.)

    I look at it as less a rebellion and more a civil war. Semantics, I know.

    There is also another reason why Boeruine's claim is weak. Laera did have a tryst with the Gorgon and the Boeruine line may have a closer tie to Roele through Laera's son actually being the son of the Gorgon.

  9. #49
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    We shouldn`t overlook the influence of naked ambition legitimized by some grievance for public consumption. The Archduke might even be able to convince himself that his true motive is the grievance rather than his lust for power.
    Sure. Hume remains us that reason can be the slave of the passions, giving us pretty reasons for doing what we would do otherwise, but under the pretence that we decided to do it. But that's an important thing. But people are not attracted to nake ambition, so dressing your ambition up (and there is always some dressing up) makes it palatable. But I also affirm that choices have consequences, and different rulers will rule differently. But the questions of chicken and egg puzzle the philosophers much more than the court, town, and field.

  10. #50
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis View Post
    There was no grievance, or more concisely, that was not the reason Boeruine gave for his claim to the throne.
    You refute claims of Boeruine's motives, but then continue by describing his actions, not his motives.
    He orchestrated Michael's death (which failed) and claimed that Michael was not Michael, but a doppleganger or fake (made even more believable by the fact that with magic, it could happen.) He even began to believe it because a) he thought his plan succeeded and b) the Gorgon was most likely manipulating him through Boeruine's court mage.
    What then were Boeruine's motives?

    Keep in mind that Birthright is a political setting. If characters don't have politics, if they just have egos, their actions aren't terribly interesting.

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