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Thread: Ilien

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    Ilien

    Discussion thread for Ilien. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

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    coat of arms

    Isn't the coat of arms for Ilien in the wiki too much like that of Müden (from the war cards for Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden)? Why a new version when there is already a nice and more realistic one in the Player's Secrets?
    Last edited by Nameless One; 09-13-2007 at 03:41 AM.

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    These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?

    It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.

    So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.

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    kgauck schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3985
    > kgauck wrote:
    > These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?
    >
    > It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.
    >
    > So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.
    If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by
    everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars
    record it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?
    Yeah, I never noticed the one in RoE before. Player's Secrets of Ilien has a CoA on the front page that is made of four symbols, much like that of Spain. It has a bit too many colors in the background for my taste but incorporation of several symbols reflects the development of CoA quite well. Actually, the ship is there in the upper-right segment. Maybe the banner in RoE is just a banner, less complicated than the CoA, or maybe the the ship on the field of blue is a personal symbol of House Aglondier? It was common for noble houses to have their own CoA and to incorporate some of the elemements from their CoA into the CoA of their realms. If that doesn't sound like a good explanation, then maybe the ship is CoA of the Free City and the compound CoA is for the County?

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.

    So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.
    I know, but Ilien and Müden are like half Cerilia apart. Not much connection. I guess most commoners in Ilien have never heard of Müden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    kgauck schrieb:
    If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by
    everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars
    record it?
    I think the greatest problem of heralds was the CoA changed very often. Individual nobles would make up their own symbols, incorporate them into the CoA of their house to create a new CoA for their branch of the house, then when they became Counts or Dukes or Kings they would incorporate their personal symbols and symbols of their house into the CoA of their realm and make a really nice mess. If you take into account the possibility of frequent changes of rulers and ruling families you'd get quite complicated and frequently changing CoA. A good herald would be able to identify a reason for change in a kingdom's CoA.

    Another reason for CoA becoming more compound and harder to identify are unions and breaking ups of realms, for example like historical union of Castilla and Aragon. Baron of Ghoere could similarly mix up his own CoA with CoA of the two duchies he conquered to create a new CoA of Ghoere if he is promoted to Duke. A good herald would understand what happened if he saw a soldier with this new CoA on his uniform or shield even if he hadn't heard of Baron's promotion.
    Last edited by Nameless One; 09-13-2007 at 04:51 PM.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars record it?
    Look at the Armorial as it is now at
    http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...egory:Heraldry
    It contains most of the provinces of Anuire, and a few scatters realms elsewhere. It adds up to 179 distinct coats of arms, and that is only for provinces and realms (and a few NPC's). If you added in lessor nobility, personal arms, cadency for sons and brothers, guilds, temples, guilders, priests, military orders, and anyone else who has the right to bear arms, we could easily be talking about well over 2000 coats of arms. Realms that no longer exist, disbanded knightly orders, families no longer in extence all add still more arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Look at the Armorial as it is now at
    http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...egory:Heraldry
    It contains most of the provinces of Anuire, and a few scatters realms elsewhere. It adds up to 179 distinct coats of arms, and that is only for provinces and realms (and a few NPC's). If you added in lessor nobility, personal arms, cadency for sons and brothers, guilds, temples, guilders, priests, military orders, and anyone else who has the right to bear arms, we could easily be talking about well over 2000 coats of arms. Realms that no longer exist, disbanded knightly orders, families no longer in extence all add still more arms.
    Thank's a lot! I saw that there are CoAs for almost every Anuirean realm and province but I had no idea I could get them all on one page. I just recently uploaded a CoA for Tuarhievel so I guess I should add it there right now...

    ...and I would if I knew how...
    Last edited by Nameless One; 09-13-2007 at 05:56 PM.

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    I had been avoiding the elves. Properly they should have a different look and feel. As the most unhuman of the non-humans their arms should be very different from the humans.

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    True but we are just humans so I doubt we could make up something strange enough. Maybe we should assume that Elves adopted the tradition CoA from humans or vice versa? If languages could influence each other so could noble traditions.

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