Divination

[kgauck]

In my sense of things, how often divinations are cryptic and how often they are clear depends on how often they are used. Frequent use of divinations can narrow down the possibilities to "Avan has eats soup for lunch and sees his ministers, or Avan pushes his soup away and takes a nap."

When a month goes by where some key players are tied up in holdings business and the spellcaster has questions, and basically casts his top divination a day until he figures out what he wanted to know. Basically the player and I are playing 20 Questions, and as you know, we can start out as vague as "I'm thinking of something" and he asks "animal, mineral, or vegetable?" and by the end of 20 questions, if he chooses his question well, can often have the answer.

"Difficult to read, always in motion the future is..."

Most certainly true. And if you tried to figure stuff out like, "When does Gavin Tael die?" I'll give you a different answer every time you ask, because unless its going to happen next week and the events are pretty well set in motion, the butterfly effect will produce constantly changing outcomes. Accuracy here relies on exceptionally vague answers.

Put a Skald with a strong Gather Information check and a Druid with a lot of divinations together and between Bardic Knowledge, Gather Information, some divination spells, a few rumors bubbling up from holdings, and you don't have a secret for very long.

For this reason, I now run the Guthrim/Olfjor arc from the Stjordvik PS right away in a campaign. For very low level characters, trying to figure out what Guthrim and Olfjor are up to, and just how much each one is really commited to a common project, and how much each is just using the other is a good political mystery. Wait until the characters are mid-level, and the PC's can figure it out without leaving home. Part of this is because I have decided that neither Olfjor nor Guthrim have expensive protections against scrying and divination. Most of the good defenses are just too expensive. Neither are able to afford good counter scrying either. Olfjor is too traditional to consult a Seer, and Guthrim prefers to use rogues to supply him with information. Poke around in their business and they know about it, but they can't do a whole lot to keep their business secret.

I imagine that bigger fish, like Fulgar the Bloodhanded, and others at the royal level do have expensive divination protection. Such things are part of the regalia of office. Perhaps crowns are all there to protect people from reading royal thoughts?

Since I use skills for all spells, divination protection can be of the +1, +2, +5, +10 variety (most typically) depending on what you can afford. These improve your scrying DC.

At the total other end of the scrying game is the White Witch. Posessing the most powerful protections against divination, keeping details about herself secret (she even appears to visitors in a false form, IMO to derail divinations), keeping her true name secret, having her palace at Mandal constructed in such a way as to create a giant magic circle against divination, using illusions like False Vision and others to concleal her most secret councils, and circulating word that she assasinates any who try to scry on her. Indeed, given her own power, as a 14th level druid of Karesha, if she catches you scrying on her, she'll scry on you and make your life miserable. And send assasins to do you in in such a way that your reputation is ruined so any claims you might have made about the White Witch or things left written are disregarded as deceptions and lies. Even contemplating scrying on the White Witch means you need to start playing her game, and empoying counter spells to conceal yourself even before you fill that brazen bowl with spring waters. Messing with the White Witch is like calling down all the intrigue and double dealing of the X-Files down on top of you. She has your friends, family, and follower charmed, rumors are spread about your consorting with Shadow World fiends, and in Rjurik there mere suggestion that you're an arcanist is enough of a burden. Every realm is seeded with Great Captains ready to rise up should your dark dealings with SW liches ever be revealed. She has spies everywhere and her favorite realm action is Espionage. Its even probabale that your own party has served her unwittingly at least once. One of your number may even be being blackmailed by her right now, thinking instead they are being blackmailed by a greedy guilder or envious noble; in so deep that there is no escape save death. But, I get ahead of myself.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I never really figured out whether the Tuornen prophecy referred to something I'd overlooked or was deliberately vague enough to be used wherever the DM wanted.

In your case an easy (and therefore likely incorrect) reading would be:

1. A terrible harvest leading to famine (and unrest, weakened army as gold is needed elsewhere)
2. Death of a visionary priest-regent (possibly in unrest caused by the famine)
3. The Priest being replaced by two weak lieutenants jockeying for power and splitting the church - making it unable to help in response to line 4...
4.1. Invasion by an army lead by either undead led by 2 servants of one of the lost from the shadow world, or
4.2. Invasion from the 5-Peaks like led by two awnsheghlien (individually weak, but brothers and so able to work together - for now) or
4.3. Invasion by mercenaries led by two opportunistic Vos / Blackguards from Kal Saitharak, etc who see the realm in turmoil and seek to profit from it - possibly supported by a lord who wishes to destabilise the area and perhaps restore order after the carnage...

Although generally Awnsheghlien work alone in most campaigns I've seen, this may not be as true for weaker ones, particularly if strong bonds of blood/necessity bind them together. If one brother was physical and the other magical it would also reduce conflict between them as they would not directly be rivals.

Brothers being an elastic term in prophecy, including fosterlings, blood brothers, members of a rare order, etc in addition to kinsmen.

I also used the mushroom prophecy from the Tuornen PS. However I translated the words into German and changed the meaning somewhat. It now reads something like:

One thin supper simmers in the worm's pot.
One silent dreamer rests on a cold stone.
Two wan candles glow at the fire's head.
Two dire brothers sow bones on the field.

Well, sounds better in German I guess, but that's the meaning.
My players have founf some clues, but are still trying to figure it out. The problem is I still haven't decided what all lines shall mean IMC. Esspecially those two dire brothers are giving me headaches, so suggestions who or what these two might be are welcome...

[Trithemius]

I like the idea of alternative forms of divination. I enjoy the idea of the court mage who prognosticates using astrology, and the priestly advisor who can perceive omens in the changing of the winds or the movements of clouds or birds.

I think that in games sometimes people want to make divination "confusing" in order to compensate for its perceived power. I am personally against this, I prefer that it give some kind of bonus or provide information that is not "fate-setting".

Questions like "What gift will please the king?" might be the subject of divinations that result in bonuses to diplomatic meetings; questions like "Will I be the Emperor?" are likely to produce less useful results and should try to be avoided.

One method might be to encourage players to have divining characters "consult omens", rather than ask questions. That way the GM can foreshadow things that are likely to happen. Even in this I favour small pieces of good information, rather than convoluted riddles; often players are much less good at the interpretation of omens than their diviner PCs!


On a somewhat related note, I am curious about what people see the role of diviners as being in Cerilian cultures? How widespread is the practice? How accepted is it? I assume that divinations are a part of courtly life all over Cerilia and that rulers probably have some idea about what sorts of questions they might be good at answering, but I am curious about what others think.

[MatanThunder]

The mage divination magic...the basics...for mages.....2nd ed..

Lv 7 Vision

At such time as the wizard (regent) wishes to gain supernatural duidance, he casts a vision spell, calling upon whatever power he desires aid from, and then asking a question for which a vision is to be give in answer. Two d6 are rolled....2-6 the power is annoyed and will cause geas or quest upon the caster; 7-9 the ower is indifferent, and some minor vision, possibly unrelated to the qustion is given; 10+ indicates the vision is granted.

The material component is the sacrafice of something valued by the caster. The more precious the better the results. Very precious +1 to roll; Extremely precious +2; priceless item is +3.

This is the type of spell that could well lead to the type of divinations your are mentioning. It is a divination with the help of outside forces that can not be counted on not to couch their advice in cryptic riddles and answers.

Lv 9 Foresight

The spell grans the caster a powerful sixth sense in relation to himself or another. although cast upon himself, the wizard can specify that he or another is the beneficiary of the spell. Tuhs, if he were the object of the spell, the wizard would be warned in advance if a thief were about to attempt to backstab him, or if a creature were about to leap out from an unexpected direction, or if an attacker were specifically targetting hiim wiht a spell or missile weapon. When the warnings are about him personally, the wizard cannot be surprised, and always knows the direction from which any attack on him is made. IN addition, the spell gives the wizard a general idea of what aciton he migh take to best protect himself--duck, jump right, close his eyes, etc....--and gives him a defensive bonus of 2 to AC. When another is the object of the spell the wizard recieves warnings about that person. He must still communicate this to the other to negate any surprise. Souting a warning, yanking the person back, even telepathically communicating through a crystal ball can all be accomplished before the trap is sprung--if the wizard does not hesitate. The object of the spell does not gain the defensive bonus to his AC however.

The M component is a hummingbird's feathers...

This one has limited usefulness, as it is predicated on eminent actions, usually combat related, although I might allow for some type of use when determining the action that would be best in the situation. If you are trying to get the tenor or “The Now” then you could use this spell to great affect.

Here are some other spells of divination. The source for these spells are Encyclopedia Arcane Divination…..by Mongoose publishing…and is a d20 product. I have converted the spells for 2nd edition (which really doesn’t take all that much). I will give brief descriptions of these spells and their usefulness to a regent who researches or discovers the powers of these spells.

Lv 9 Equation of Man

This spell allows the caster to know all information about his race from its inception, but the knowledge is fleeting. What the spell does is make it so that the caster cannot fail an attack roll, skill check or saving throw regarding his race. The spells research and preparation properties are vast. The spell even states that it extends to non combat situations and research. It could give intimate knowledge about ones adversaries.

The spell also allows the caster to complete any single task in the duration of the spell regardless of the time it should take using the spell. An elf attacks other elves for a number of rounds then teleports away to fashion a suit of flawless suit of chainmail in the remaining 8 rounds of the spell (dur is 1 rd per caster level).

It has a -10 penalty w/other races during its duration.

Since the world of Cerilia is predominantly human though, a human mage spell caster could become almost unstoppable with the spell.

Lv 5 Fleeting Genius

This spell simply allows its caster to gain the ability to perfectly complete a single task. It can work for attacks or skill/proficiency checks.

This spell could allow the caster to hang the spell, and then unleash it with a licking of their lips as they make the final point in a debate that they are attempting to win for a diplomatic point.

Lv 5 Foretelling

This spell provides the DM that twisting of the words that others have alluded to, in this version of the spell. It will answer a question with up to 3 different conditions, with a 25% -1% per lvl of caster (minimum truthfulness is 16% for a 9th lvl caster).

It can be useful for lesser questions, but might not give complete information if the caster isn’t careful with the spells wording.

Lv 9 Greater Foretelling

As with foretelling the spell offers answers to a question, but it is much more potent of course.

It allows for a “Perfect & Complete” answer to any question of any complexity, but still may be less than clear in its answer…..but it will be accurate.

If cast in conjunction with a foresight spell the foresight spell will last for 24 hours.

I really like this next one……

Lv 3 Gilded Tongue

This one allows for the caster to know what the best thing to say is for any ongoing situation. In diplomacy this would be a killer spell to have in affect. It also allows the caster to know what he needs to say in order to win people to his viewpoint. There is a +10 DC bonus for those who use the later systems with Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Gather Information, in order to perform them flawlessly.

This would almost guarantee success in diplomatic meetings especially if the spell was hung to go off on a movement of choice. The spell has a 1 turn per level duration, so a higher level caster could easily dominate even longer meetings.

Lv 3 Master of the Game

While this spell can be used to cheat at game of chance, it also offers the caster the ability to “foresee the future possibilites of a single action involving a limited number of choices.” It allows the caster to see perfectly into the next round and make decisions based on that viewing. The spell specifically mentions combat and non combat uses.

Once again the spell is used to view/divine situations right now, but it could be crucial to see how votes and other “simple” actions would come to pass, and possibly alter the outcome in some way.

These are just a few of the spells in publication or on the net that could be useful for the mage regent out there practicing divination. If I find others I will post them if they are useful in divination by regents in the game.

Also any mage could research a “Realm Level” spell that could accomplish a much more detailed and viable information set. Lets say “Determine Year” which could provide a list of the single most important events for a single event each month for the following year. It could provide key information while still making subsequent issues pop up so that everything the DM does is not transparent. Of course you could create the spell in the own image of your game, but for me this “Epic/Arch Mage” style magic would yield complete answers to these events, and the spell would probably require a Lv 5 Source or greater.

Magic is a stronger force than steel……it should work out that way. (Of course magic vs magic is a very bad thing, and Azrai vs magic is a lose lose situation.)

Later

[kgauck]

For the most part I think the mechanics of divination can be pretty standard regardless of the modes used. Astrology, Alomancy, Pyromancy, Tarot, or Dream Interpretation differ in what questions you ask, how you go about asking them, and then what kinds of questions you get, but since you can still identify basic, moderate, and hard questions, then basic check can work the same basic way.

Every thread of mentor-student could be unique, with its own set of special questions and methods for divination.

[irdeggman]

Paint a story, create a sense of intrigue, but I don't feel that suspense is necessarily the prime concern for me (personally) as a role player. For a ravenloft setting suspense is more important, but for birthright it isn't such an integral part.


This of course comes back to divination. You can play what spells and powers you like, but true divination reveals the "Truth" in a usable form. Portents and lesser divination affects have their place, but if the spell/power says it can do something, you owe it to your players to let them know if you are using an "Altered" rule/affect......not that you are.

I just hate to get involved in a game, and find out my DM is doing something that I can't live with and have to leave the game shortly thereafter. If a DM just tells me what they are altering, I can make a decision on whether I want to play that style of gaming or not. It has happened to me before, and probably will again.

Suspense may not be as integral in Birthright as Ravenloft, but intrigue is an essential part of the Birthright setting. Because of that a certain (sometimes a large) amount of unknown information is necesssary. This need to be tempered of course so that players do not feel that they are having their powers (e.g., spells) neutered to the point of uselessness. Sometimes merely pointing out that things are always changing and the results of future seeing divinations are only one way they will be - based on current status. If something changes in the future then the answer will be different.

It needs to be emphasized that the standard spell system (any edition) is based on no domain level play and on nothing that is equivalent to bloodlines and the presence of some part of divine spark in soem mortals.

IIRC even in 2nd ed divinations did not work on divine beings - they were beyond such magics.

[MatanThunder]

A small point....

IIRC even in 2nd ed divinations did not work on divine beings - they were beyond such magics

There are two factors in such issues. One is what power level is the deity in question. Demi Gods do not have the full blown immunity to divinational powers. For greater powers than demi gods, at least the Avatars of the greater gods/goddesses (and by extension thier missions on the prime material plane) could be scryed/divined against. It is their true essences on the outer planes that remain beyond normal issues of divination.

Two, if you use a greater power than the deity you are attempting to scry/divine against, as the creature to question in the use of the LV 7 Vision magic, (and if successful), you can make divination on the other deitiy.

The best possible contact would be the Deity of Magic (Rounil?) in Cerilia, as his magic would be the most puissant among the greater gods, and he would therefore be able to scry on any of the other gods who were not working in concert to block such efforts.

Just my opinion on reading the 2nd ed, and having Legends & Lore and Deities & Demigods.

Later

[kgauck]

Another form of divination which perhaps should be more important to BR involve romantic divinations. Who is my fated love? Many techniques have been suggested for determining who your soulmate is as well as helping things along with a little enchantment. If you have a hardened group of D&D players who have learned to regard attachments as a liability, then none of this will work for you. If you have players who accept that forming family alliances strengthens you rather than creates vulnerabilities, at least some fluff on the magic of romance is probabaly worth some consideration.

What can get interesting is when PC's begin to consult divinations to find their match, and using minor enchantments to boost their likability and seccure a match.

[kgauck]

The best possible contact would be the Deity of Magic (Ruornil?) in Cerilia, as his magic would be the most puissant among the greater gods

Magic is what people do, these effects are innate to divine beings. Ruornil's power among the gods is defined by his divine rank (lessor power) and his portfolio (esoterica, arcana, nocturna, luna, naturalia) than by some association between being a god of magic and the fact that for the humble mortals we are, magic is how we divine the future or make fire appear on our enemies bodies.

I prefer to say that the gods are non-magical, but rather are divine. But you can also describe it by saying that the gods are all-magical and that it is their rank and portfolio which best describe who is most powerful if gods use their powers against gods.

However, given some setting material that suggests that the gods have for the most part agreed not to do that, even those considerations are moot.

[MatanThunder]

Magic is what people do,

But Rournil is the GOD of Magic...like Mystra in many ways. He could concievably block other deities powers if they crossed his patheon. He would certainly be a wimpy god of magic if the other gods could just use magic without his tacid approval at least.

Ruornil's power among the gods is defined by his divine rank (lessor power) and his portfolio (esoterica, arcana, nocturna, luna, naturalia) than by some association between being a god of magic and the fact that for the humble mortals we are, magic is how we divine the future or make fire appear on our enemies bodies.

Maybe in 3.whatever. Pg 59 The book of priestcraft. Ruornil is the lord of magic, and the guardian of mystical places. There is no mention of his status (power level here) but it does mention that he is also Allies wiht Eric, Avani, & Nesirie, which means that should a mortal survive the divination encounter with the spell Vision, that Rournil might ask for assistance in divining information on other deities from these forces too.

what page is that "Lesser" ranking given on and in what source material. I want to take the author out behind the wood shed and "talk" to them about the power of magic.

If you PO a god of goddess of magic you are going to lose the ability to use magic. If they deity can do that, then finding out some divinational information should be a piece of cake.

Later