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03-01-2002, 01:09 AM #1
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I started this thread based on a discussion on whether or not it is evil to use force to relocate people. It got me to think that perhaps that act of moving into an area that doesn't belong to you is evil in the first place. Could you then kill these people for their evil act?
Looking at this in another way, often "Good" characters feel justified in killing "Evil" characters/creatures simply because their evil. Could this be considered an evil act? Aren't the good characters obligated to try to bring the evil characters to the good side?Lord Eldred
High Councilor of the
United Provinces of Cerilia
"May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"
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03-01-2002, 04:31 PM #2
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Ahhhhhh......this promises to be an endless debate:)!!!
Killing is evil.......PERIOD!!!No matter what scenario you use,a variable can be changed to give the opposite justification."Victory has a thousand fathers,defeat is an orphan."
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03-02-2002, 05:38 AM #3
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Lord Eldred
High Councilor of the
United Provinces of Cerilia
"May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"
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03-02-2002, 03:42 PM #4
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Yes I have killed,and although my alignment is none of your business,for purposes of this particular discussion,I shall disclose the fact that I am Neutral Good with strong Chaotic tendencies.
Second question is dependant on situation.For example your group is rooting out a group of gnolls which has been raiding a few villages in one of your provinces.Obviously there will be bloodshed,as you are invading their home because they are invading yours.This is not evil.Say one surrenders but before anyone can secure him,one of the party kills it.Evil is starting to worm its way in.Another surrenders and you do secure it.You parley with it for awhile,and let it go,and you kill it.That is EVIL,no doubt about it.
Killing monsters count.....again depends.Killing neutrally aligned monsters(ankhegs,packs of wolves during a particularly brutal winter),that are infesting a province,is a necessary evil.They are just doing what we do,looking for food.Something coming in and rampaging through the province,such as a horde of gibberlings.....Not evil.Going into a small foresst and wiping out anything and everything in it so some citizens can move into it...EVIL!!!!
Death Penalty is one of those touchy subjects.The death penalty in and of itself is NOT evil,it is who uses it and how it is used.Used by Gavin Tael,it is evil.Odds are he uses it to get rid of anyone who defies his authority.When used by a Paladin of Haelyn,who odds are will hold a fair trial and only use it against the most uncorrigible of murderers,no it is not.
I think I forgot to add something to my post when I said killing is evil,and I mean it here as well.Killing is evil,but it is all in degrees,and in perception.WHY did the paladin kill that man?Was he defending a young woman from a cold-blooded murderer,or did he do it becasue a young woman he is enamored with,loves the man he killed?Killing is evil,but in the first case it is forgiveable,nearly neglible,and definitely not needing of an alignment shift nor even second thought.But the second should require an IMMEDIATE alignment shift,as that is jealousy and selfishness."Victory has a thousand fathers,defeat is an orphan."
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03-03-2002, 02:55 AM #5Cattle die and kinsmen die,
thyself too soon must die,
but one thing never, I ween, will die, --
fair fame of one who has earned.
HAVAMAL
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03-03-2002, 02:06 PM #6
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So if I understand the argument, killing is evil but in some cases it is ok? And if I am correct in one case it is not evil because they are Gnolls who are invading your villages.
So in some cases it is ok to be evil?
If the act itself is evil in all cases, wouldn't good characters have an obligation to try to handle every situation without "killing the beast"? If they didn't try to handle every situation with the least amount of force, shouldn't they suffer an alignment change?
Let us take for example the situation where the Paladin is defending the maiden from the cold blooded murderer. Shouldn't the Paladin have the obligation to preven the murder of the maiden with out killing the murderer if the act of killing in and of itself is evil? If the Paladin didn't even try to prevent the murder without bloodshed (using the subdue), shouldn't the paladin suffer an alignment change?
A necessary evil? Couldn't we fence off the land from these wolves without killing them?
If the act of killing is evil, shouldn't you suffer an alignment change if you didn't first try to take care of the problem without killing?Lord Eldred
High Councilor of the
United Provinces of Cerilia
"May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"
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03-04-2002, 01:37 AM #7
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In the real middle ages, life was pretty cheap. Killing and getting killed was the way of life. Capital punishment was common for many offences, brigands would pass their prey to the sword on a routine basis and if you didn't die by someones hands, disease was likely to do so at some point. In a campaign with clerics and healers, disease can be less of an issue, especially for those who have the means to pay for cures. Monsters, on the other hand, would tend to increase the death rate.
I believe no-one at that time had any notion of environmentalism, except perhaps the elves to some degree. No-one would think twice of killing a wolf, as they were considered as pests and hunted to near extinction in Europe (as late as early in this -er sorry- the previous century).
Killing a gnoll was probably as acceptable if not even more so. After all a wolf is only a beast, while the gnoll actually seeks you out and raids villages and such.
As for the Paladin vs. Murderer example, I think that the paladin would be entirely justified in taking the murderer's life. Better still would be to take him alive and face trial and public execution (a popular entertainment in these times).
If a paladin is given a sword, is it not to use it on whoever his deity or conscience sets him against? To use it against defenceless victims would be dishonourable, but to use it against an armed opponent? I somehow doubt people would bat an eyelid. To take joy in the act of killing would be evil, but to consider it a necessary evil and dispatch the job as soon as possible?
ps. IRL I am opposed to the death penalty. Or killing of any form for that matter.Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said: `one CAN'T believe impossible things.'
`I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast'
-- "Through the Looking Glass", Lewis Caroll
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03-05-2002, 02:33 AM #8
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The statement that "Killing is evil" is a generalization and generalizations should be avoided at all costs.
This is an adventure dammit! I expect to be rewarded for acts of homicide!
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03-05-2002, 02:34 AM #9
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Killing, itself, is an act. Acts are neither good nor evil they are simply acts. Those who commit them are either good or evil.
This is an adventure dammit! I expect to be rewarded for acts of homicide!
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03-05-2002, 02:47 AM #10
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Is this that whole mind slayer thing again? My head hurts already.
Abbess Allessandra
from the United Provinces of Haelyn
"On your knees...to pray!"
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