Harvest god: Erik or Avani?

[AndrewTall]

It occured to me recently that Cerilia has no diety with a portfolio of 'harvest' or 'agriculture'.

The obvious candidates are Erik (nature) and Avani (the sun),

A harvest deity is pretty much the patron god of farmers, and in a medieval world that makes them fairly powerful.

My thoughts were possibly Erik in Anuire / Rjurik / Vosgaard and Avani in Khinasi and Brechtur.

The rationale was that the Khinasi put up a heck of a struggle against the Anuirean empire making the common worship (or at least respect) for Avani rare in Anuire whereas Erik, being a non-confrontational deity would be far more appealing to the Haelynites, the Vos are also more likely to respect the old man of the forests than the intellectual lady of the deserts.

The Brecht on the other hand wait for Avani to melt the ice of the great bay each year so that their fishing boats may sail and bring in the bounty of Neserie but are wary of the forests making Avani a more obvious candidate imho.


Any views? Any other major portfolio's lying around unclaimed?


The 2e complete book of priests suggested the following portfolio's (many of which overlap):

agriculture, ancestors (Nesirie), animals (Erik), arts (Laerme), birth, children (?), community (patrons), competition (Cuiraecen?), crafts (Sera?), the bringing of culture (Avani), darkness, night (Eloele, Ruornil), dawn (Avani), death (Nesirie?), disease (Kriesha?), earth (Erik), elemental forces of nature (Erik, Cuiraecen), evil (cold rider, Kriesha), fate/destiny (Ruornil?), fertility (Erik? Avani?), fire (Avani), fortune/luck (sera), guardianship (Cuiraecen, Haelyn, Ruornil), healing (Avani?), hunting (Erik), justice/revenge (Haelyn), light (Avani), lightning (Cuiraecen), literature (Laerme), love (Laerme), magic (Avani, Ruornil), marriage (patron), messengers (Cuiraecen), mischief, trickery (Eloele), moon (Ruornil), music/ dance (Laerme), nature (Erik), oceans/rivers (Nesirie), oracles/prophecy (Avani? Ruornil?), peace (Nesirie), prosperity (sera), redemption (Cuiraecen?), rulership/kingship (Haelyn), seasons (Erik), strength (Belinik), sun (Avani), time (Ruornil?), trade (sera), war (Belinik, Cuiraecen, Haelyn), wind (Erik? Cuiraecen?), wisdom/common sense (Erik, Haelyn)

Aside from agriculture/the harvest there is no obvious deity for children, and a number of others I have allocated are questionable.

[Fizz]

It occured to me recently that Cerilia has no diety with a portfolio of 'harvest' or 'agriculture'.

The obvious candidates are Erik (nature) and Avani (the sun),

I think it depends where in Cerilia you are. Avani would be the choice in Khinasi i think. One needs sunlight to grow stuff.

I'm not sure Erik would fit actually- he wouldn't be support large-scale farming. He's more of a hunter/gatherer deity.

Ruornil might fit though, as he has a strong plant portfolio.

Since Cuiraecen is the deity of storms, he might fit when you need a good drenching for those parched crops.

So, i think you can justify it a number of ways. You wouldn't need a deity specific to agriculture per se. Pray to Avani when you need sun, and switch to Cuiraecen when you need rain. Go to Erik when you're looking for 'shrooms in the forest, and Ruornil to drive away crop-thieves in the night. Heh.

-Fizz

[Danip]

Im with Fizz on this one. You could see agriculture as so important that almost all of the deities are involved in it. Though, of course, varied by what culture your from. Vos butchers might offer a prayer to Belinik, while a Rjurik butcher commends the spirit of the animal to Erik. An Anuirean landlord asks the priest of Haelyn what planting schedule to use, while a Brecht freeholder prays that Sera grants him luck to avoid a late frost...

[Nicholas Harrison]

In Birthright, I've always imagined the Church "adapting" to their Gods portfolios to the needs of their constituencies.

The Talinie Sourcebook gives an excellent example of how the Northern Imperial Temple teaches "hardwork and dilligence" to the common farmer.

I think each Church fills that role -- applying a different "tone" to that aspect of their faith.

For instance, although Haelyn is the patron of nobility and knighthood, his Church can't just ignore the peasant farmer. A good village priest teaches that Haelyn honors those who strive to be a good man / woman by fulfilling their duties -- raising children properly, providing for a family, succeeding in one's chosen profession through hardwork and dilligence.

Sarimie (one of Haelyn's major competitors in the Heartlands) probably fulfills much of the same function. However, the spin that her church puts on it probably differs slightly -- commending her followers to take pride in their work. At a county fair, she would honor the farmer who produced the biggest pig or the largest pumpkin, the housewife who baked the most delicious pie.

It takes creativity, but you can usually find some aspect of every deity's portfolio that you can develop to fulfill the harvest function. They just emphasize different values when commemorating the harvest.

[AndrewTall]

I had thought Erik simply because he's the nature god - the hunter/gatherer being a Rjurik/Vos way of looking to provide food with the more settled people looking to agriculture and the sea to provide.

Part of the reason for considering him the agriculture deity as well as the wilds deity is so I can see his priests in other cultures, at present can’t see his priests away from the forests at all.

If Erik was the deity of agriculture I think his priests would focus heavily on producing only what was needed for the local population and encouraging wildlife in hedges and set-aside land - I can't see them as encouraging big surpluses for trade, although that may be a hang-over from the druidic approach of the wild's god.

I hadn't considered Ruornil, although he has an obvious interest in plants I would have thought he would oppose the spread of agriculture rather than encourage it as when the forests are cleared to grow corn, etc the mebhaighl produced is weak.

The trouble I see with Cuiraecen is that violent weather is terrible for crops which mostly want a moderate steady precipitation, not a sudden drenching that washes away the soil and batters fruit. In Khinasi however the desert dwellers could well see him as the 'right' god as the plants there might bloom only after the rare storms that drift inland.

I can see the 'local' god approach as reasonable, however it rather undermines the idea of a pantheon, it is consistent with each people having a patron god, but for game reasons I prefer a multitude of deities in all areas rather than several monotheistic domains.

[kgauck]

I think Nicholas Harrison is right on when he writes, "I've always imagined the Church "adapting" to their Gods portfolios to the needs of their constituencies."

Missing portfolios are just defaulted into the existing dieties (or at least some of them). Sera, Avani, Haelyn, and Erik all make good agriculture goods, they just focus on some part of agriculture as the key part.

Andrew Tall has Erik when he writes, "If Erik was the deity of agriculture I think his priests would focus heavily on producing only what was needed for the local population and encouraging wildlife in hedges and set-aside land - I can't see them as encouraging big surpluses for trade, although that may be a hang-over from the druidic approach of the wild's god."

Since there is an Oaken Grove of Aeric in Anuire, what else could it be about, since Anuireans are not hunter-gatherer nomands (and neither are the Rjurik, BTW, the people along the coast of the Taelshore and the banks of Hjarring are easily 80% of all Rjurik). It must be a broad nature faith, including agriculture.

The only things I think the local god of choice doesn't have in their portfolio are the things specifically listed as someone elses portfolio.

[Fizz]

Since there is an Oaken Grove of Aeric in Anuire, what else could it be about, since Anuireans are not hunter-gatherer nomands (and neither are the Rjurik, BTW, the people along the coast of the Taelshore and the banks of Hjarring are easily 80% of all Rjurik). It must be a broad nature faith, including agriculture.

I disagree with you here. According to the Book of Priestcraft, the Oaken Grove of Aeric is:

"most concerned with the preservation of wilderness and reources".

and

"They are much more like the Oaken Grove in Rjurik lands in that they willingly trade what they gather from the forest".

As to the 80% of Rjurik live on the Taelshore- i don't know where you get that value from, but i don't think it means anything with respect to farming anyways. Accoring to The Rjurik Highlands:

"Thought these are the oldest and most "civilized" Rjurik realms, the land is nonetheless wild and rugged"

and

"many Rjurik continue to live in the their traditional nomadic manner, settling in winter camps, then migrating to ancestral hunting grounds in spring and summer".

For these reasons, i don't think Erik makes a great deity of agriculture. Sure, some Rjurik may grow crops and and have farms, but it clearly is not an important aspect of Erik's dogma or the Rjurik lifestyle.


-Fizz

[dalor]

In the Forgotten Realms I`ve always pondered a similar
question about Chauntea, the goddess of essentially
farmers. In the Moonshae Isle she is considered the
Earthmother and actually has a great deal to do with
wild nature. She has two aspects that honor the needs
of two different cultural ideas about her.

I don`t feel that gods are so bound to their
portfolios that they have no ability to meet the needs
of others that worship them. On the contrary, I feel
that the gods mold themselves around the ideas that
others pray to them about...to gain as many followers
and worshipers as possible.

So for Erik, to me at least; it is completely possible
that he his both an agricultural god in Anuire and a
Nature god in Rjurik lands.

I mean, if Haelyn`s temple can fragment into so many
different sects in one culture, why can a god not have
seperate sects/aspects worshiped in two entirely
different cultures.


Anthony Edwards

--- AndrewTall <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net
> message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
>
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3277
>
> AndrewTall wrote:
> Actually I think that Laerme has quite a thing about
> marriages...
>
> I would note that Deismaar is fifteen centuries ago
> - more than long enough for religions to rise, fall
> and rise again - look at earth.
>
> If you want to have priests of many deities in BR
> however, particularly with players running temple
> holdings that monopolise the faith in any given
> area, it is necessary to consider how other gods
> could get worshipped as part of the Northern
> Imperial Temple etc.
>
> It`s easy just to say that they don`t, i.e. each
> realm being a monotheistic (or nearly) culture. But
> it should also be possible to see the other deities
> as part of a pantheon under the patron which means
> that the `lesser` gods need a role. Given Erik`s
> irrelevance in most `civilised` realms the only way
> to involve him I`ve come up with is as a harvest
> god, although I`m welcome to other reasons why he
> might have a following away from the forests.
>
>

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[RaspK_FOG]

I actually believe that there's a lot to state on the matter; maybe a sidebar or supplemental article on the matter of religion in Cerilia is in order (I have a couple of friends and relatives who are theologists, which can be a ton of help in establishing even more realistic patterns in the spread of religious beliefs and orders).

For example, we shouldn't be expecting many non-Rjurik druids - the lifestyle of other peoples of Cerilia lends little to the living habits of druidic circles.

[AndrewTall]

I can see druids in Vosgaard, or possibly in Khinasi away from the Sun Coast, but elsewhere I see it as 'too civilised' for large numbers of druids.

I'd be interested in any notes on the spreading of orders, or in realistic orders that can be used in game play - priestly orders are a good source on conflict in game-play and do not need to necessarily obey what secular types see as 'common sense' which can allow a GM to derail the plans of conspiring PC's who metagame overly.

I find Erik interesting in that he only seems to have 2 churches in the Rjurik lands, the Oaken shield and the Emerald Spire, although the relatively low population of the Rjurik conspires against many powerful churches (at least from a game-play point of view, from a historic point of view the isolation would encourage fragmentation).