Birthright societies and law.

[graham anderson]

Well some of the reasons that I am looking at it is I will have a few weeks with little to do.

I am also interested in Udal law more than feudal law but I also have some interest in it.

I have played in a lot of birthright games and run a good few too and the problems and misunderstandings that come about because different players have different ideas of the nations and its laws is frankly a pain. Mostly because some people have some very funny ideas about feudal law far less udal law or other laws.

One of the things I would like is maybe a different random event table or some changes to the table for each type of government so that it is more personalised. For example in a realm with a parliament a young firebrand politician has gained a good deal of power in the parliament and is bringing the business of state to a standstill.

[kgauck]

Do you see Udal law having a realm level effect, or is it something that fills in the background as a cause of action?

When I ran my Baruk-Azhik compaign, one of the things the players did was to clear out an abandon mine of the cultists and humanoids that were there. The Overthane of B-A, a PC, gave the mine to his new bride, but the old guild who had dug the mind considered re-asserting their claim. The Grand Judge of B-A, first argued that the guild had abandon their property for a sufficient amount of time that their claim was void, ultimatly, the new consort of the Overthane got to keep the mine, but the old guild got to work the mine and they split the profit. This situation had no realm effect, but it was the cause of one adventure and several letters between the Overthane and the Grand Judge.

Do you see Udal law as a Rjurik thing, or do you imagine wider use? I would certainly be interested in the Scottish version for Talinie, since Scotland is that realm's model.

[graham anderson]

Udal law is Norse law rather than feudal law although there are some similarities. In this case I would make it rjurik law. I am thinking about having some realms with a bit of both mostly dhoesone but Talinie might be a good place for it as well and some of the Rjurik realms might have some feudal land left over from the empire. After all it gave the Scots a few headaches. Lawyers do seem to rule the world now as well as in the past. The hold over of free land in some feudal realms would create many of the same situations as udal law as well.

I like your example its the sort of thing I want the nation/government information for.

As for udal law having a realm level effect mostly no, taxes are still collected and realms ruled although there may be problems stemming from it with large construction work as the king would not have the same rights to buy people out or move them on. Maybe not a big problem for the rjurik but a possible effect.

I would like different governments to have different realm effects in some places but I think that outside random events that is something to think about later. I would like to think about it I definitely think there should be more variation but first things first.

An interesting example might be during a war or plaque the inheritance laws give the land and farms to the eldest son but all other property to the other children mostly the sons. This can give you a large well armed but homeless group of young men after any large scale death in the nation. The ruler would need to channel these men into something useful or away from the nation to raid elsewhere.

Then we have the lack of the use of levies in feudal war which I would like to change at some point but again that is something for the future.

[dalor]

Scotland is the model for Talinie? Did I miss
something? Is that simply your opinion or was that
recorded somewhere?

Anthony Edwards

--- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net
> message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
>
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3264
>
> kgauck wrote:
> Do you see Udal law having a realm level effect, or
> is it something that fills in the background as a
> cause of action?
>
> When I ran my Baruk-Azhik compaign, one of the
> things the players did was to clear out an abandon
> mine of the cultists and humanoids that were there.
> The Overthane of B-A, a PC, gave the mine to his new
> bride, but the old guild who had dug the mind
> considered re-asserting their claim. The Grand
> Judge of B-A, first argued that the guild had
> abandon their property for a sufficient amount of
> time that their claim was void, ultimatly, the new
> consort of the Overthane got to keep the mine, but
> the old guild got to work the mine and they split
> the profit. This situation had no realm effect, but
> it was the cause of one adventure and several
> letters between the Overthane and the Grand Judge.
>
> Do you see Udal law as a Rjurik thing, or do you
> imagine wider use? I would certainly be interested
> in the Scottish version for Talinie, since Scotland
> is that realm`s model.
>
>

>
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[dalor]

Lack of levies in Feudal War? I`m not clear on what
you are saying there...are you saying they didn`t have
Feudal Levies...or that a population disaster would
complicate it?


Anthony Edwards

--- graham anderson <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> Udal law is Norse law rather than feudal law
> although there are some similarities. In this case I
> would make it rjurik law. I am thinking about having
> some realms with a bit of both mostly dhoesone but
> Talinie might be a good place for it as well and
> some of the Rjurik realms might have some feudal
> land left over from the empire. After all it gave
> the Scots a few headaches. Lawyers do seem to rule
> the world now as well as in the past. The hold over
> of free land in some feudal realms would create many
> of the same situations as udal law as well.
>
> I like your example its the sort of thing I want the
> nation/government information for.
>
> As for udal law having a realm level effect mostly
> no, taxes are still collected and realms ruled
> although there may be problems stemming from it with
> large construction work as the king would not have
> the same rights to buy people out or move them on.
> Maybe not a big problem for the rjurik but a
> possible effect.
>
> I would like different governments to have different
> realm effects in some places but I think that
> outside random events that is something to think
> about later. I would like to think about it I
> definitely think there should be more variation but
> first things first.
>
> An interesting example might be during a war or
> plaque the inheritance laws give the land and farms
> to the eldest son but all other property to the
> other children mostly the sons. This can give you a
> large well armed but homeless group of young men
> after any large scale death in the nation. The ruler
> would need to channel these men into something
> useful or away from the nation to raid elsewhere.
>
> Then we have the lack of the use of levies in feudal
> war which I would like to change at some point but
> again that is something for the future.




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[graham anderson]

Hi dalor I was refering to levies only really being used for defense in the game and a levy of those people who owe you militery service being raised.

I would have liked to have seen a different levy maybe depending on the size of province so that you might get better units in say a province 6(3 levy serfs, 2 irregulars and 1 knight).

A smaller levy that could be raised for attacks.

The rules as they are almost ignore levies and feudal society.

It is a pretty complicated issue for the game though so I will be largely ignoring it just now.

[kgauck]

Scotland is the model for Talinie? Did I miss
something? Is that simply your opinion or was that
recorded somewhere?

If you look at the geographical names:
Kincardine, Strathcarron, Flodday, Balvanish, Durness, Lindholme, Daliburgh, Scalpay, Dunbeath, Stronsay, Colonsay, Culkein, and Strathcanaird
there is a strong Scottish feel there.
The colors of the realm (from the picture of Thuriene Donalls in Ruins of Empire) are blue and white, the colors of St Andrews.
And then there is her name, Donalls. Plus Leland, Old Lotan, Stalban, and Murdoc Sanford Myles.

There is a perponderance of Scottish influence here, and its location between the Anglo-Norman Anuire and the Viking Rjurik also seems like a natural.

It was enough for me to decide to embrace Scotland as my model for Talinie when I needed a new name like
Brulan Broweleit
Iain Broweleit
Lamorac Kincardine
Erskine Murdoc
Duncan Dalmelling
Artair Ramsey
Niall Deadwater

See the full list here http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/talinie.htm

[Lord Rahvin]

kgauck wrote:
---

> Only if I ignore the pages of text in the various PS which say
> otherwise. There are two sources you can consider (as I already mentioned
> in post #14 of this thread). You can consider the BR rules which uses dice
> to decide whether you are successful or not for a given action, or you can
> consider the descriptive text which is full of limits on the will of the
> ruler. The former strikes me as way to much game and way too little role
> play. The latter is they way I run my own games. If the Diemed description
> were to say that declarations of war or assembling an army required the
> consent of the nobles (either through the ratification of a noble council or
> because it was the nobles who actually muster the troops) then its very
> possible that if Diem outran his nobles in some plan to make a war it could
> end very badly.

---


Oooooh, okay. I`m kind of liking where this is going. But I need
clarification.

Let`s take your example with Diemed and assume the "official description"
(an idea I find oxymoronic to begin with) says that the declaration of war
or assembling an army requires the consent of the nobles. Let`s also assume
that Baron Diem is played by a PC who wants to establish a huge army.

Now I need some clarification here to better understand your position: Are
you suggesting that...?
#1) Additional rules be added to the domain system to reflect the "will of
the nobles" on this issue.
#2) No additional rules be added, but that line removed from the official
description.
#3) No additional rules added, but a paragraph of material be added
encouraging players and DMs on ways of working "will of the nobles"
improvisations before committing the restricted action(s) and providing
suggestions for these improvisations such as roleplay, random events,
diplomacy actions, etc.
#4) The DM should veto the players request to recruit too many troops and
all players should expect this to happen because of what`s in the realm
description.

Also, one more question just to get us on the same page:
#1) Are your points/ideas limited to only one style of playing Birthright?
(I think my earlier statements/rationalization/arguments only applied for
play exclusively at the domain level of play, not from a hybrid
adventure/domain setup. I tend to play games where everyone`s a regent.)

Thanks.


-Lord Rahvin

[Lord Rahvin]

kguack:

> I immediatly think of the the 1559 war between England and Scotland over
> the succession of Elizabeth (Mary, Queen of Scots claimed the throne
> herself). The English force sent to invade Scotland, lacked support from
> key Catholic nobles, like the Earl of Northumberland, whose approval was
> critical. The English were defeated. As it happens, there were plenty of
> Scottish lords who preffered and alliance with Elizabeth to the Guise
> alliance with France, and despite England`s defeat, they deposed Mary of
> Guise and forced Mary Queen of Scots to accept the withdrawl of the French
> army (she refused but it happened anyway).
>
> Neither ruler simply willed action and these failures happened, because
> core constituancies were not on board. Now, you can either see this as
> rolling very poorly on realm actions supporting the war, or you can game it
> out and let the players deal with these problems directly.

---

I`m not trying to build a straw man here, but your last statement sounds
like you are debunking the idea of having a domain system at all. I was
under the impression we were trying to improve the domain system.

Let me know if I`m just way off.

-Lord Rahvin

[AndrewTall]

I would have thought the realm description in the atlas would compliment the domain system during play, I would expect a GM to would reward players who 'roleplayed their realm' well i.e. the ruler of Taline using a clerical argument or fear of Boruine to sway the populace, ruler of Avanil stressing their realms glorious history to raise a levy, etc. The reward could give a bonus to the domain roll, reduced cost, or an unusual benefit.

Similarly a ruler who blatantly ignored/contradicted the realms history, i.e. a ruler who ignored the 'mayor's council' etc could see province loyalty falls, find it more expensive to raise troops, be more likely to generate great captains, etc.

Ideally the player would choose a realm which suited their PC's ruling style (militaristic, popular, aloof, etc) a PC who generated a replacement realm with a detailed background would similarly hopefully design one which would not conflict with their PC's aims (unless that was their intention).

An example in game terms:
(thanks to kguack for the history):

> I immediatly think of the the 1559 war between England and Scotland over
> the succession of Elizabeth (Mary, Queen of Scots claimed the throne
> herself). The English force sent to invade Scotland, lacked support from
> key Catholic nobles, like the Earl of Northumberland, whose approval was
> critical. The English were defeated. As it happens, there were plenty of
> Scottish lords who preffered and alliance with Elizabeth to the Guise
> alliance with France, and despite England`s defeat, they deposed Mary of
> Guise and forced Mary Queen of Scots to accept the withdrawl of the French
> army (she refused but it happened anyway).
>
> Neither ruler simply willed action and these failures happened, because
> core constituancies were not on board. Now, you can either see this as
> rolling very poorly on realm actions supporting the war, or you can game it
> out and let the players deal with these problems directly.

If the PC had approached the Earl of Northumberland and allayed his fears / played on his greed to sway him to their side / quietly assassinated him, recruited the scottish lairds to their cause, etc, then I would have given them a substantial bonus to the invasion - i.e. information on enemy locations, perhaps a friendly levy or two raised by a laird, the defection of an enemy unit or inaction from same, etc.

If the PC offended the lairds, openly threatened the earl of Northumberland but failed to deal with him decisively, etc then the earl might summon a unit or two of catholic 'freedom fighters' from nearby countries, pay for a mercenary unit or two to support Mary, wavering lairds could remain inactive or ally with Mary, etc. Similarly any provinces conquered by Elisabeth could have a starting morale below normal, produce less gold/RP until Elisabeth 'proved herself' somehow, etc.

In the diemed example if the PC used intrigue on the council of nobles to identify their fears and desires, then used diplomacy to go to the council and sway them to war using the information they had gathered to gain the nobles support, then the PC could for example get the loan of a unit of knights (noble's sons protecting their father's interests), cash to hire mercenaries, etc.

If the PC ignored the nobles completely then the noble's could be offended, province morale would drop, tax collection could suffer, information on Diemed's intentions could surreptitously be passed to the target realms possibly warning them of the planned invasion, etc.

I see domain play as just like role-playing a PC meeting with a merchant, guardsmen, etc writ large. Play the role well and benefit, blunder around like a bull in a china shop and suffer. It would be hard to build rules for this, but simple guidance (i.e. minor benefits include a, b, c, major penalties include x, y, z) would be handy.