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  1. #11

    dhoesone blues

    I always assumed the "defense of Dhoesone was supported by the High Chamberlain (and those who wish to toady up to him) in a futile atempt to stave off any further degradation of the Empire. Remember he has relatives helping to prop-up the Baroness's government. As for the low pop. the story seems to indicate that the elven queen ruled the barony for at least a little while before passing the regency on to her daughter. Perhaps settlers chose to relocate rather than live under an elven ruler. Combined with it's back-water location, remembering that trade routs need to connect providences of different races (or at least terrain types) Stjordvik becomes a much more attractive ally.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    With so many people "contributing" to the defense of the Dhoesone, it must be the most seccure realm in Cerilia, unless what everyone is defending are their own peculiar interests and the result is that every faction "contributing" are also contesting at least some of the other factions.

    The fact that these various factions all control army units, and that the only one raised by the Baroness is a company of irregulars bodes very ill.

  3. #13
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Anuire really doesn't pay much if anything for the defense of Dhoesone, with the possible exception of the Haelynite knights there. Far more units are supplied by the elves.

    Its possible that other temples of Haelyn kick in a bit of cash for the knights every so often.

    Or that what we have are individual knights, whose property and support are throughout Anuire, but instead of defending thier homes and native realms, go to Dhoesone to defend that realm, or serve Haelynite interests there.

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Birthright societies and law

    Consider

    Anarchy Province/Kingdom
    Autocratic Province/Kingdom
    Democratic Province/Kingdom
    Feudal Province/Kingdom
    Magocratic Province/Kingdom
    Theocratic Province/Kingdom
    Tribal Province/Kingdom
    Oligarchy Province/Kingdom
    Mixed Province/Kingdom

    Anarchy is generally either utopian condition or a temporary one. Tighmaevril can be the cause of anarchy. Such a condition probabaly wouldn't be the stated condition of a realm, but might be mentioned as a past condition or hinted as a possible future condition.

    Autocratic (Despotoc, Dictatorial) means one person rules, and the rules for BR clearly give all the power in any domain to one person (the guy with the bloodline) but the descriptions are full of contrary evidence. Decriptions of this kind realm are pretty easy, who is the ruler and who are his henchmen.

    Democratic: Given the period the game generally reflects, we're talking about the Viking Thing, estates, and diets. These can be dominated by representatives of a geographical area, and be like a House of Lords (where each lord represents his subjects), or it can be urban and reflect a limited membership (only master craftsmen participate, and they represent their own interests, not some broader constituancey). Democracies are very rare as a pure form of government, these institutions are generally combined with something else.

    Feudal: A feudal system has different layers of governance, and the adjoining levels have mutal obligations to serve and protect the other. There are clear statements that Anuire is feudal, yet there are no rules for province rulers in either landed or holdings domains. We can assume that they are loyal and fully participating members of their overlord's domain, as a good feudal vassal would be, or we can assume they have their own resources in some abstract way. Of course the dice can easily cover any abstractions, but they create problems if players wonder where the money went. If players seek to min-max their realms they way many do their characters, its nice to have something a little more solid.

    Magocratic doesn't strike me as a useful term here, because it represents the source of the power of the realm, not how its excersized or how many paricipate in governance. I have the same problem with plutocracy, theocracy, bureaucracy, timocracy, &c. Is it useful to describe The Orthodox Temple as a theocracy? Or Rheulaan Greencloak as a magocrat? Either the class of the ruler(s) is irrelvant, or its obvious.

    Theocracy (as above)

    Tribal, again seems either obvious or irrelvant.

    Oligarchy, rule by a few. This is somewhere between rule by many and rule by one, but a few is a discreet number (not thousands) and more or less co-equal. A council or clique can form an oligarchy. The group is more important that the chair or other leader of the group.

    Mixed would describe something more than just a hybrid, since "democratic oligarchy" functions to decribe a guild where some power is vested in a few and some power is distributed widely in the guild. Generally if two adjectives would need to be used (a feudal, oligarchic autocracy), its mixed.

    If there are types that describe how many, or how power is distributed, that aren't included, suggest them.

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    There are several Theocratic lands and to ignore that would be doing the setting a disservice.

    Medoere and Talanie come to mind immediately in Anuire.

    There are also some in the Khinasi Lands.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Medoere and Talinie are run by priests and have temple holdings, they are obviously theocratic in the present. This doesn't need special attention, any more than saying that Endier is a Plutocracy.

    One of the characteristics of a theocracy is that its not a simple coincidence that the ruler happens to be a priest, they must be a priest. Is investiture more difficult for a character of a different class in Talinie or Medoere? Are these realms only playable be priests?

  7. #17
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck
    Medoere and Talinie are run by priests and have temple holdings, they are obviously theocratic in the present. This doesn't need special attention, any more than saying that Endier is a Plutocracy.

    One of the characteristics of a theocracy is that its not a simple coincidence that the ruler happens to be a priest, they must be a priest. Is investiture more difficult for a character of a different class in Talinie or Medoere? Are these realms only playable be priests?
    Well Medoere was founded by Suris (at the insistance of Rournil) - and no I don't think a theocracy needs to have a ruler who is a preist. Paladins can work just as well, as can any religious zealot could serve in that capacity. The important thing is the foundation (and recognition) by the church.

    Ariya has the prince-paladin (historically) so I think that will meet any criteria for a theocracy.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #18
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    In Dune and its sequals, the new Emperor establishes a theocracy on
    Arakkis. While he himself could probably be considered a priest, when its
    time for the heir to take over, the right of rulership passes onto his son
    who is *not* a priest and in the meantime is ruled by his sister (the
    "Imperial Regent") who is, at best, a prophetess but certainly not a member
    of the priesthood.

    And yet throughout this time, you can see that the Imperium remains a
    theocracy ruled mostly by an organization of priests who advise and recieve
    orders from the imperial regent. Without them, the emperor could not rule
    Arakkis as effectively and so it is often necessary to agree to their
    religious demands, wheter you agree with them or not (even if you happen to
    be their God or their God`s sister.)


    On 12/12/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    >
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3264
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Medoere and Talinie are run by priests and have temple holdings, they are
    > obviously theocratic in the present. This doesn`t need special attention,
    > any more than saying that Endier is a Plutocracy.
    >
    > One of the characteristics of a theocracy is that its not a simple
    > coincidence that the ruler happens to be a priest, they must be a priest. Is
    > investiture more difficult for a character of a different class in Talinie
    > or Medoere? Are these realms only playable be priests?
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Well Medoere was founded by Suris (at the insistance of Rournil) - and no
    > I don`t think a theocracy needs to have a ruler who is a preist. Paladins
    > can work just as well, as can any religious zealot could serve in that
    > capacity. The important thing is the foundation (and recognition) by the
    > church.
    >
    > Ariya has the prince-paladin (historically) so I think that will meet any
    > criteria for a theocracy.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Birthright-l Archives:
    > http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    >
    >
    >

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I also think there is a fine line between a state religion and a theocracy.

    The places I mentioned all pretty much have state religions and so does Roesone (IHH).

    I think the two are very closely tied and the government and reldgious influence issues need to be captured.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
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    There area a number of areas to try and cover about a feudal theocracy or state religion.

    A few examples.

    Can the religion hold land as a lord but lords still exist.

    Can the religion hold land as a lord but lords still exist and other religions may hold land.

    Can only the religion hold land.

    With a strong state religion the ruler is put in a difficult position as to demand taxes, militery support or the return of feudal land from the church may not be looked on kindly and may ultimatly result in civil war or some other strife. A Theocracy being ruled by the head of the church would have no such problem.
    MORNINGSTAR

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