Elves and their place in the World

[Lord Eldred]

No problem. I didn't mean to be rude and I do respect your opinion but I would still like to hear Lawgivers take on it.

[Eric McLuen]

No offense taken. I haven't noticed any posts recently so I hope he is ok and has not been scared off. I am also curious regarding his website name 'fan of enoch'. He is a really minor character in Genesis and yet has a major role in Jewish mysticism.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Lawgiver which viewpoint is true?

If they were created from a divine being (god) and they believe that, couldn't they worship that divine being and thus be clerics?

If they were created by Azrai but don't believe, couldn't it be possible that they have religion worshiping a divine being that does not exist? It would mean they couldn't be clerics with true powers granted by a divine being.

If they believe that Azrai is the divine being then they could worship Azrai and be clerics with granted powers.

As Eric said both are true in their own way. In the words of Kenobi, “ a great many things depend on your point of view”. However, to answer the spirit of the question, elves were created by Azrai from the elements of the earth. While elves are immortal in body, they are in fact mortal in spirit. Humans on the other hand are mortal in the flesh, but immortal in spirit. It’s actually quite a fascinating arrangement.
With regards to the quandaries on whether elves could draw power from Azrai or other “gods”, the answer is mixed. For most campaigns, elves or any race for that matter can draw power from any divine source they worship, provided the divine source has power to give. For my campaign, there are basically only two “primary” sources of power God or Azrai (Satan). For various pagan gods and divine beings that other religions worship power does exist, sort of… (don’t you love the definitive answers!). Ultimately, the “false religions” either draw power from their own authority/self belief or demonic sources. The majority of the time worshippers/followers of “false religions” draw power from demonic sources even though they may not realize its source. Demons, the minions of Azrai/Satan, have the power to conceal their true identity and can influence people by presenting themselves as “good” to initially draw followers. These demonic forces can in fact provide elves/humans with supernatural powers. These powers may even be used to "do good" to a limited extent. Since being "good" and doing good works are not the key to get to heaven, it is a subtle and effective trap. They entice people into to doing good and living lives that may fit the moral code of a religion. Overall the believers are “good people”, but they aren’t going to heaven. Thus the side following Azrai has one another small victory. A bit of campaign world history/background may be in order:
Azrai was once one of the chief angels in God’s kingdom and was booted out for attempting to exalt himself above God and take his place on the throne. God kicked Azrai out of heaven and cast him to earth. On earth Azrai still had time to humble himself and return to God. However, Azrai’s pride is to great and God’s judgment and victory has fueled his hatred. Azrai knows that he is no match for God and so rather than “hurt” God directly he has channeled his hatred toward God’s most precious creation—man. Azrai wants nothing more than to kill, destroy, or condemn as many men as he can before God’s final judgment. To aid him in this purpose Azrai created elves and subjected him to his “teaching and guidance” and imbued in them a hatred and prejudice to the point of violence toward humans.

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
P.S. If elves did exist then that passage of the bible would apply and god created elves.

Indeed if elves did exist God would have most likely created them on the sixth day with man.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
No offense taken. I haven't noticed any posts recently so I hope he is ok and has not been scared off. I am also curious regarding his website name 'fan of enoch'. He is a really minor character in Genesis and yet has a major role in Jewish mysticism.

No luck in scaring me off, and thankfullly I'm in good health. Unfortunately , I have been extremely busy. My wife is 7 months pregnant and on the verge of being placed on bed rest so I have plenty of housework to do at home, secondly we are planning on moving at the end of the month and I have been busy packing and taking care of other details. Additionally, I have been working overtime at work. With the chaos I rarely get any free time till after 10:00 p.m. and lately I've been to exhausted to be of much use... Anyway, back to the matter at hand!

I'm impressed that you even knew who Enoch is. Most people haven't a clue. I am a Christian and do refer to Enoch in the context presented in the Bible, not the Jewish mysticism. Enoch happens to be my favorite character in the Bible, though little is known about him. Let me explain:

Genesis 5:18-24
18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died. 21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

At first it may seem that the passage "he was no more, because God took him away" would imply that Enoch "died". However, through the genealogy presented in this section of Hebrews it lists the age of an individual at the time of their death. An age at death is not given for Enoch, he simply "walks with God". To solve the mystery you must skip from Genesis to Hebrews to know the truth.

Hebrews 11:5-6
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Enoch had such a close relationship with God that God allowed Enoch to be taken from earth to live with Him in heaven. Enoch did not have to experience death. His relationship and fellowship with God is absolutely amazing to me. It blows my mind that a person could be so close to God that God would simply let them into heaven while they are still in t he prime of life (average age was 800-900 at the time and Enoch left with God at 365).

[Lord Eldred]

SO Lawgiver, if I am understanding you right elves can be clerics of Azrai but not God?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
SO Lawgiver, if I am understanding you right elves can be clerics of Azrai but not God?

Yes.

[Eric McLuen]

Am I right to assume that your elves cannot cast spells imbued by God because they are created by Evil and are therefore evil by nature? Could they not somehow get a change of heart and be converted and saved? Perhaps a saviour of some type?;)

I found the dissertation about the nature of the 'pagan' gods in your world very reminiscent of the explanations given by the early church fathers - are the pagan gods actually demons bent on corruption or are they merely non-existent mirrors of our own corrupt psyche. By your explanation, both are true and elves are damned either way. I am curious though - you mention that even if a person lived a righteous life but worshipped an alternate god, he is still condemned by not following God proper. Was I misreading an earlier post?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
Am I right to assume that your elves cannot cast spells imbued by God because they are created by Evil and are therefore evil by nature? Could they not somehow get a change of heart and be converted and saved? Perhaps a saviour of some type?;)

Despite the discontent of all the elf lovers they currently have no hope in my campaign. Its not ''their fault'' they were created that way. But another weird item that isn't known to humans (or my players... until now...man what a spoiler!) is that elves cannot procreate at all. Azrai created a finite number of them. When they are slain they cease to exist. They were not created with souls and thus cannot be ''saved''.

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
I am curious though - you mention that even if a person lived a righteous life but worshipped an alternate god, he is still condemned by not following God proper. Was I misreading an earlier post?

Nope. I hate to break it to you but based on the Word of God there's only one way to heaven.

WARNING: IF YOU HATE CHRISTIANITY AND/OR DO NOT WANT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY DO NOT READ THE REST OF THIS POST. Ok, but you've been warned...

Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13:4
But I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

John 8:24
I [Jesus] told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, ''I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ''

John 10:1-9
1 I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a strangers voice." 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. ''

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else (Jesus), for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.


If your not right with God, but are a simply a ''good person'', that isn't enough. There is but one way into heaven. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

John 3:14-18
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[Eric McLuen]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver
Nope. I hate to break it to you but based on the Word of God there's only one way to heaven.

If your not right with God, but are a simply a ''good person'', that isn't enough. There is but one way into heaven. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

First off, I am quite impressed if you did all that by memory.

However, I have to strongly disagree with you on the above statements. You have just discounted a lot of third country people who haven't been descended upon by missionaries, small children and the entire cast of the Old Testament. I find it quite arrogant to condemn people to eternal damnation due to their place of birth and other such circumstances beyond his or her control. There are way too many inconsistencies in the Bible itself as well as how it has been interpreted for me to leap to that conclusion. Don't get me wrong, I find the Bible a fascinating book. These inconsistencies and even contradictions add to its meaning rather than take away from it. Discussion about the different accounts of the same events or why certain events made it in certain gospels and what didn't offers a much deeper understanding of the time and the people who live in it. (Don't get me started on what is to be taken literally or metaphorically).

I think it would be fun to debate such things. However this is not the forum for such things. I feel I should apologize for egging you on to this point about something you obviously feel very strongly about. I do look forward to your posts as I find your world setting very interesting and your ability to add a new perspective on things.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
First off, I am quite impressed if you did all that by memory.

I must confess I only knew a little over half of them. I looked the rest up. There are others of course, but I figured I already overkilled the point. :)

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
I think it would be fun to debate such things. However this is not the forum for such things. I feel I should apologize for egging you on to this point about something you obviously feel very strongly about. I do look forward to your posts as I find your world setting very interesting and your ability to add a new perspective on things.

Since I'm sure that I have already offended some and the core of this issue is not relevant to Birthirght we should in fact take our discussion elsewhere.
I have recently added a new discussion board (hosted by www.Bravenet.com) to my website fan_of_enoch.tripod.com. Its not top quality like Arjan's, but it works! The link to the discussion board is on the left center/bottom section of the main page. We can use this section if you are willing or if you have another forum in mind.

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
There are way too many inconsistencies in the Bible itself as well as how it has been interpreted for me to leap to that conclusion.

If we do continue this discussion I would prefer that you provide specific examples of "inconsistencies" rather than a generalized statement of disregard.