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Thread: Kingdoms

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by palious
    A very good reason for no uber power in anuire is very simple. There is a stalemate. In the games I've been in, the three main "superpowers" (not including the Gorgon of course) Avan, Boueruine, and Ghoere don't want to make moves against the other, because even if victorious, it would leave them weakened to the third. Thus a balance of power is maintained. Also, this is a situation the Chamberlain has found useful and so uses his not insignificant resources to maintain. Therefore, a new emperor would face opposition from the big three, or from the Chamberlain, or from all.
    For Avanil and Boeruine is true,but Ghoere is far from the other superpowers.
    But Mhoried is a superpower or not?

  2. #22
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    I disagree...Ghoere IS one of the most powerful
    nations in Anuire. I don`t agree with its political
    situation though (as written by the original work).
    The only nation that could stand against Ghoere that
    shares a border is Mhoried...and their military is
    busy watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as
    the Five Peaks. Elenie has a similar problem to a
    lesser degree, as well as not actually having a strong
    military. Oesorde is in civil war. Alamie is weak
    and its ruler deluded into thinking he can swiftly
    take over lands long lost to his family.
    Endier...well, no threat. Leaving only Roesone, which
    also has a small military that doesn`t even closely
    compare to the military of Ghoere.

    The only true threat to Ghoere comes from the
    Spiderfell, and well...a line of catapults with
    flaming pitch shot would fix that in my
    opinion...swarms of spiders or not.

    Ghoere is easily one of the most organized and
    powerful nations in Anuire...ready to soon overpower
    neighbors.

    Yes, Ghoere is a "super" power if you will...


    Anthony Edwards

    --- vota dc <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    >
    >
    > For Avanil and Boeruine is true,but Ghoere is far
    > from the other superpowers.
    > But Mhoried is a superpower or not?



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  3. #23
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    A power is any entity capable if excercising sustained force outside its own community. The term great power came along later to reflect any power capable of excercising force across the globe. The presence of great powers created a term for regional powers, who could excercsise power more broadly than many states, but whose reach was limited to a part of the globe. Super power is a term created to decribe the perponderance of power held by the United States and the Soviet Union compared to established great powers, like France and Great Britain who still had the capacity to project force globally. Since none of the entities in the game (other than a party of adventurers) had the ability to project power across Cerilia, let alone the globe, terms like super power are mis-placed in Anuire.

    Generally, using the vocabulary of power projection, kingdoms like Beoruine, Avanil, and Ghoere are powers, because they can project power. Most other states can only annoy their neighbors.

    Whether Osoerde is a power is an interesting question, and would rely to a significant degree on how the DM wants to play it. Classically, Duke Jaison could use a foriegn war to strengthen his position domestically as the people rally around the throne, but he would in effect be gambling his whole throne on the war, since a successful war would solidify his position, while a losing war would almost certainly result in a Moergan restoration.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    I don`t agree with [Ghoere's] political situation though (as written by the original work). The only nation that could stand against Ghoere that shares a border is Mhoried...and their military is busy watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as the Five Peaks.
    Some points of agreement to establish common assumptions, and then some questions.

    Mhoried is very busy watching the Gorgon and would have difficulty taking any fight to another enemy.

    What about Ghoere's political situation seems out of sorts? Are we mostly talking internal, extrernal, or both?

  5. #25
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Ghoere may have a significant power-base, but he is surrounded by enemies - every single border is hostile or at best wary.

    In the Falcon and The Wolf it describes how Ghoere conquered Elenie and half of Mhoried before being defeated - and that is recent memory, neither nation is going to stand by while Ghoere starts munching on neighbours knowing that they would be next on the menu.

    Roesone is only a new realm, formerly attacking it would have been attacking Diemed or Aerenwe direclty - both at the time very strong realms. I would note that Ilien and Medeore have some sort of alliance against Diemed which may also act against Ghoere. If Aerenwe got involved, Ghoere would swiftly find himself out of his depth. Diemed is unlikely to aid Roesone directly but the Duke sees Roesone as his ancestral lands and would far rather see them in the hands of a 'weak rebel' than in Tael's...

    The Spiderfell is a hazard, but is mostly passive. Its not going to raid out in force unless someone stupidly raids in first.

    Endier is a lot stronger than it looks - Kalien has vast trade income, an equally large spy network, and can very easily support a dozen plus units despite having only one province. Add the likely support of Avanil and Tuornen and a long term conquest would be very difficult to sustain, in fact Guilder Kalien might wind up taking Tireste under his protection...

    Alamie shares a small border, and is focused on Turonen, but again is probably being underestimated. I always saw the Alamie:Tuornen conflict as a family affair - deadly serious differences which vanish into unity the moment a 3rd party intervenes absent.

    Osoerde is currently a quagmire with guerrilla warfare rampant. The phrase poisoned chalice leaps to mind. Osoerde would be unlikely to directly help others if attacked, but would happily take advantage of weakness to snip of Achiese if Ghoere got bogged down in a northern conquest. And as KGauck says an external war is always a good way to solve internal differences - all those hot blooded young boys finding somewhere else to get rambunctious.

  6. #26
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    The original work and the opinion of others suggest
    that Ghoere can`t focus on one enemy because it is
    surrounded by nations that would join together against
    it...I don`t see that situation.

    I see Ghoere able to quickly/easily crush the strength
    of its neighbors. While I don`t think Ghoere could
    simply run over anyone in truth...it could easily
    crush the military of any one or two neighbors...only
    internal turmoil would prevent it.

    My problem with the situation of Ghoere is that the
    Baron should have been able to take territory from one
    or more neighbors without breaking much of a sweat.

    Anthony Edwards

    --- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > I don`t agree with [Ghoere`s] political situation
    > though (as written by the original work). The only
    > nation that could stand against Ghoere that shares a
    > border is Mhoried...and their military is busy
    > watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as the
    > Five Peaks.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Some points of agreement to establish common
    > assumptions, and then some questions.
    >
    > Mhoried is very busy watching the Gorgon and would
    > have difficulty taking any fight to another enemy.
    >
    > What about Ghoere`s political situation seems out of
    > sorts? Are we mostly talking internal, extrernal,
    > or both?



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  7. #27
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Ghoere is in the "central position" and so is surrounded by powers who are already wary of Ghoere as a threat. Central position is the hardest spot for an agressive power, because any move activates the hostile coallition.

    To successfuly manage the central position, you need a Bismark to diplomatically seperate the powers from each other so that you can deal with each in turn. However, note that Bismark's Germany was mostly seeking unification, not the aquisition of foriegn territory.

    Schleswig was already part of the German Confederation and had long been part of the Reich. The fact that the King of Denmark was also the Duke of Schleswig made the question of whether Schleswig was really German or Danish an open one. Taking advantage of such ambiguities is key for a power like Ghoere.

    Bismark's war against Austria was merely to demonstrate that Prussia was the natural leader of Germany because of her modern, effecient army. Defeated Austria was given no indemnity and suffered no territorial losses. Ghoere may settle disagreements with other powers in battle, but she will have to avoid taking lands or indemnities if she hopes to avoid activating a hostile coallition. Speaking of hostile coalitions, keep in mind as well that it was Austria who had the coallition against her, because she held power in both Germany and Italy, and faced a two front war.

    Bismark's final war was conducted while France was diplomatically isolated and Prussia was friendly with Russia, Austria, and Sardinia (proto-Italy). While an indeminity was demanded and a border province (tiny in proportion to the size of either France or Germany) exchanged, it forced Bismark to adopted a very non-agressive policy, claiming to be a sated power. Not only did Bismark have to adopt a non-aggresive policy, but he had to work harder to get assurances from other powers in the forms of alliances. Finally, Bismark had to oppose any colonial policy as it would seriously complicate relations with other colonial powers, and the defense of any such colonies would require a navy, and so antagonize Britain.

    Bismark is one of the best examples of a person who could guide a central power aggressively. He was a powerful diplomat and was able to isolate his enemies. None of this is part of Ghoere's description. I think this is because, by unifying the two earlier duchies, and perhaps rounding out his territory, Ghoere has basically put himself in the position of Bismark after the war with France. He's a demonstratedly aggressive power and everyone is ready to join against him.

    There are still two tricks to consider:

    Strike while parts of the hostile coallition against you are distracted by a crisis elsewhere. Almost certainly this means action while Boeruine is moving. If Avanil has to respond to both, he'll almost certainly put most of his eggs against Boeruine. If he doesn't, either because Boeruine cuts a deal, or Avanil had an ace up his sleeve, Ghoere is busted. Generally, this is a good one.

    Use puppets to get what you want. You don't actually get anything this way, but either (a) your friends do or (b) at least you denied some resources to your enemies.

    The problem I see most, based again on the existing description, is that Ghoere has no friends. Until he does, he's got to sit on his hands.

    Consider that every realm and domain has a PC ruler who has read the description and considers Ghoere a threat. If you were Ghoere, you'd have to change the enviroment of hostility before you act act aggressively again.

  8. #28
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    One assumption that needs to be out in the open regarding war is, how often are realms at war. If they are at war all the time (as the published materials suggest, at least in Anuire) then things are quite different than if war is a rare, catastrophic event.

    If wars are common, then distractions must abound and Ghoere should have plenty of opportunities to make mischief. If peace is normal and war is exceptional, then Ghoere is waiting.

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