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Thread: Kingdoms

  1. #11
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Kings don't have to rule kingdoms

    I agree with what Celtibear says. Think about for a moment. What defines something as a kingdom? The main features in human history seem to be:
    1) a lifelong supreme ruler/rulers who controlled the finances, government and military of an area
    2) a way to decide their successor on their death, which was commonly heriditary

    The type of "exceptions" to this were things like the Althing in Iceland etc deciding the next "king" and the Irish High King (Tanist) who was IIRC selected from a group of regional kings. But the key thing to remember is that in "present day" Anuire, the Regent of each major area is effectively a ruling a kingdom.

    What is throwing people is the disjointed use of titles like Duke and Baroness in Anuire. What you have to remember is that these are just English "translations" not English "equivalents". The Anuirean concept of a baroness is very different to the human history equivalent. For a start, it was originally given a much higher position on the Order of Precedance than any human history baroness that I can remember. Also, as has been pointed out, post-Empire the titles have just become like labels within each area. Baroness Roseone might as well call herself the Grand Poobah. Everyone would treat her the same regardless of what hat she wears. The word "baroness" no longer has a certain level of rank that can be differentiated from Duke Boeruine. They are both the monarch of a kingdom. This would not change unless they both swore allegiance to a higher ruler, who might decide to call itself Emperor or The One who Smites.

    Sorontar.

  2. #12
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    IMO the varied use of "titles" in Anuire is mostly die to the political climate.

    Avan calls himself a "prince" and yet the Roeles did not claim such a "monarchy".

    The various titles used are more about posturing and setting up future "claims" for the Iron Throne.

    That is the "only" title in Anuire that is constant. The one who successfully claims the Iron Throne successfully claims the title and authority of Emporer.

    So basically don't worry about whether or not someone declares a "kingdom" in Anuire. It will carry no additional weight than a barony or duchy - only the person sitting on the Iron Throne will be "recognized" as the ruler of Anuire.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #13
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    Great stuff so far...

    I had given some thought to the various realm-states
    (a term I use for the nations of Cerilia because they
    are very nearly like city-states...but not) and
    thought that in the history of Anuire, at least, only
    Ghoere and to a lesser extent Roesone had really
    emerged as new nations independent of rebellion. I
    may be wrong; but I thought for sure that the lands of
    Roesone were carved forcfully from other countries;
    while I was unsure of Ghoere but knew it was not one
    of the original Duchies.

    I always liked Gavin of Ghoere; but I am a little
    unclear of the history of Ghoere. My Birthright books
    are unfortunately packed away in storage in Virginia
    while I now live here in Washington State; so I was
    wondering if someone wouldn`t mind giving me a run
    down on exactly how Ghoere came to be and on what
    realms was it built upon?

    I actually have a son named Gavin by the way...not
    named after the Gavin in topic; but it is a topic of
    some debate with my wife: "Did you name our son after
    some fantasy D&D character!?"

    She is a recent convert to playing D&D and caught his
    name as the ruler of Ghoere on my computer game of the
    Gorgon`s Alliance.

    Speaking of that game, it does give a really good feel
    for why it is hard to maintain a growing kingdom when
    you only have the three domain turns! The patch that
    allows taking on Vassals and actually controlling them
    is the only way the game really becomes "realistic"
    because otherwise your kingdom becomes much to
    unwieldy and it is very hard to keep track of
    everything that needs to be done. Before the patch I
    found that certain parts of the "Heart of the Kingdom"
    simply were becoming totally neglected by me because I
    was always on the frontier waging war to expand my
    kingdom. Why the guilds and temples of the areas were
    in decent steading to start with, I could never afford
    the regency to increase either them or the more
    important Law holdings to have an organized Heart for
    the kingdom; instead being forced to contest with the
    former rulers of my conquered provinces to establish
    law there to tax the provinces I had gained to make
    them somewhat less of a financial burden. The only
    way to solve the problem was to totally obliterate a
    neighboring kingdom making the holdings become null
    and void and then establish my own...but again this
    took a great deal of time!

    So the feudal aspect of the campaign setting...indeed
    the VITAL and REQUIRED need of vassals to help run the
    kingdom...come quickly to the fore.

    No matter what anyone says, I`ve yet to encounter a
    setting that allows you to both have fun as an
    adventurer and still delve into Realm Conquest and
    Kingdom building.

    If anyone would like to compare experiences as regents
    of their favorite BR country I would really enjoy
    hearing it...could also add some depth to the
    discussion on why Kingdoms are hard to found in BR!

    Myself, my greatest experience was as a Paladin of
    Haelyn and monarch of the Theocracy of Talinie! I
    quickly decided that Goblins were NO good as neighbors
    and that all of Thurazor needed to be reclaimed
    immediately.

    My initial plans were a steady increase in my military
    and the establishment of a Knightly Order. The sheer
    income that Talinie generates is much more than I
    could have hoped for! With taxes I was little
    impressed, but the temple holdings were staggering in
    the gold that was generated. Even with ol` Redbeard
    to the south as my liege, I was able to stave off any
    political advances by him simply by paying him off
    with a small sum of GB each tax-time and supplementing
    that with a small army for his use! He used them
    constantly though (the DM was trying to drain me all
    he could of money) and I had to replace units quite
    often (then he had an incident that caused my people
    to become upset that so many were being sent to
    foreign wars...so I just started hiring mercenaries
    which cost even MORE money).

    Anyway, I moved my "military capital" to my 5/2
    province while leaving daily government in Icehaven as
    well as the religious govt (the two are pretty much
    the same in Talinie!). I built a fortress and founded
    my Knightly Order...then sent an envoy to the "King"
    of Thurazor informing them that they had one year to
    remove any person in Thurazor who was not willing to
    swear fealty to my monarch. Needless to say it didn`t
    work out so well for me (never thought it would
    really) and my ambassador was dressed funny and sent
    home.

    I invaded immediately because of the lack of respect
    shown myself and my envoy (my entire plan was to force
    this pretense...which the DM fell for!). My military
    was easily able to crush the goblins, even when the
    guilds at home started giving me trouble and Rjurik
    "raiders" hit my coast (they were mercs in the employ
    of the guilders). I responeded at home rather heavy
    handed and absolutely crushed the guilds...militarily
    when opposed. Caused lots of trouble, but the DM got
    to take more money from me as I opened the church`s
    coffers to feed/employ those now without work (I took
    the old approach of using the unemployed on state
    building projects...and then began awarding free
    farmland in provinces formerly belonging to goblins
    since they rarely farmed the land at any rate!). I
    took care of the "Raiders" by spending even more money
    and hiring myself a mercenary navy...which was
    promptly crushed by my Leige Lord for piracy and
    brigandry when they put into his "safe" port.

    So..."Not the behaviour of any Paladin I know" may be
    running through your head right now...but I never did
    anything evil or even lied: i`m of the firm opinion
    that there would not still be Paladins if they were
    all idiots that couldn`t adjust to social situations.
    Although the next thing I did nearly lost me my
    Paladinhood!

    In my near total conquest of Thurazor (there was still
    some resistance here and there) I gave any goblins who
    didn`t get away a simple choice: "Convert to the
    worship of Haelyn...or undergo religious retraining.
    Those that fail "retraining" will be rewarded with
    swift journeys to their maker!" Sort of a religious
    inquisition if you will. Didn`t go over very well
    with the DM...but I pointed out in my defense that the
    Church of Talinie was VERY strict regarding its
    adherents, and there were no other religions even
    allowed! What was a good monarch to do? :-)

    In the end there was a compromise: the goblins were
    allowed to leave lands now held by Talinie for the
    Five Peaks...and that came back to bite me in the
    butt.

    Realizing at last that the coffers of Talinie were too
    much for neighboring realmst to withsand, he massed a
    horde out of the Five Peaks and sent them against
    me...

    Unfortunately that is where my reign ended as he
    suddenly realized that Aeric Boeruine and I were going
    to mop the floor with the Five Peaks and my liege and
    I were about to again expand our holdings...so he
    asked me to help run the game and so I did. :-( We
    had about 8 people all running different nations and
    it was getting to be too much for one person to
    handle!

    Soooo...anyone else care to share a story of their
    favorite kingdom?


    Anthony Edwards



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  4. #14
    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    >snip<
    A fine post and a good read. I hope there will be more posts in the "Tales from the Throne"-category.

    BTW:
    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    [...] my entire plan was to force this pretense...which the DM fell for! [...]
    As a DM, I really enjoy when players metagame their intrigues. It keeps me on my toes, and, IMO, it makes the game more fun.
    -Harald

    Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.

    Blog

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    Great stuff so far...

    I had given some thought to the various realm-states
    (a term I use for the nations of Cerilia because they
    are very nearly like city-states...but not) and
    thought that in the history of Anuire, at least, only
    Ghoere and to a lesser extent Roesone had really
    emerged as new nations independent of rebellion. I
    may be wrong; but I thought for sure that the lands of
    Roesone were carved forcfully from other countries;
    while I was unsure of Ghoere but knew it was not one
    of the original Duchies.
    Moedore was founded via military force (Rournil actually stepped in to defeat the forces of Diemed).

    Endier was carved from the Spiderfell and likewise had to succeed from Diemed.

    Those two come to my imediate recall.

    Attached is the timeline from Rich's Secret Files.
    It helps put things into "historical" perspective.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
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    Attached where? I didn`t get an attachment in the
    email I received.


    Anthony Edwards

    --- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Moedore was founded via military force (Rournil
    > actually stepped in to defeat the forces of Diemed).
    >
    > Endier was carved from the Spiderfell and likewise
    > had to succeed from Diemed.
    >
    > Those two come to my imediate recall.
    >
    > Attached is the timeline from Rich`s Secret Files.
    > It helps put things into "historical" perspective.




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  7. #17
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    Attached where? I didn`t get an attachment in the
    email I received.
    Attachments must be gotten through the web site and not via e-mail.

    BR.net merges both the mail serve and the web site but this also means that not everything goes.

    IIRC you can't send attachments via the mail serve at all.

    The web site allows you to upload and download things (like the BRCS and various chapters for instance).
    Duane Eggert

  8. #18
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Dalor> I always liked Gavin of Ghoere; but I am a little unclear of the history of Ghoere. My Birthright books are unfortunately packed away in storage in Virginia while I now live here in Washington State; so I was wondering if someone wouldn`t mind giving me a run down on exactly how Ghoere came to be and on what realms was it built upon?

    Andrew> For the domain secrets of Ghoere try: http://www.bloodsilver.com/

  9. #19
    A very good reason for no uber power in anuire is very simple. There is a stalemate. In the games I've been in, the three main "superpowers" (not including the Gorgon of course) Avan, Boueruine, and Ghoere don't want to make moves against the other, because even if victorious, it would leave them weakened to the third. Thus a balance of power is maintained. Also, this is a situation the Chamberlain has found useful and so uses his not insignificant resources to maintain. Therefore, a new emperor would face opposition from the big three, or from the Chamberlain, or from all.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Here is another way that you can end up without a single dominant power. The connection between a bloodline and the land is never totally severed. Dynasties who hold a given parcel of land for a long time develope a connection to the land that allows them to create an "ancestoral rebellion" where the land would revert to the bloodline who held the land for a long time. So that even if Boeruine conquered Avanil, unless he killed off all the Avans (including decendents in other houses who married out), someone would be able to come along later and re-claim Avanil.

    As such, conquests tend to be short term, and look more like the English domination of Scotland between Edward I and Edward III, than a clean conquest where succesful investiture ends the old dynasty's connection to the land.

    There are several items in the established histories of various realms that support this kind of thing. First is the Moergan struggle in Osoerde. William Moergan needs to be able to defend a province before he can cause it to rebel and join him, because otherwise Duke Jaison will just occupy it and take it back. So he works to weaken the Duke so that when he starts to foster rebellion, the Duke cannot just reconquer his province.

    Another would be the way the House of Cariele was nearly exterminated, so that no one would live to reclaim the County (or Barony). The survival of a scion, who now rules Coeranys would always be a source of concern for the current rulers of Cariele.

    I believe Kiergard also includes a story about how the former ruling house was elminated.

    Generally I would limit this ability to ancient houses, and so someone like the current rulers of Cariele or Osoerde could not use it in reply. They are too new.

    This brings up interesting situations for Diemed and her break-away provinces. Medoere is a pretty integrated country, with province, law, temple, and source holdings working closely together. Getting the land back won't do much if every holding is applied to taking it back. Just like William Moergan, the Baron (or Duke) of Diemed would need to at least get enough holdings that he could hold the province. Another thing that could be going on there is that the new rulers have ancestoral powers in a single province, having been the local counts for a long time. So that Ilien, Fairfield, and the capital of Medoere are also ancestoral to the current ruling houses, and would be impossible for Diemed to take in that fashion. Combined with the more traditional alliance of the three new powers, Diemed is still hard pressed to recover his lost provinces, but it does allow for it to happen without swallowing a number of provinces larger than what remains in Diemed.

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