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  1. #51
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:44 PM 11/22/2006, Andrew Tall wrote:

    >Noted on the wolves and worgs. Don`t orogs have some sort of lizard
    >as a horse equivalent?

    There are giant lizards amongst them here and there in BR
    products. The leap between keeping them in pens and riding them
    isn`t terribly far. It is a little debatable how well a low-bodied,
    strangely gaited, difficult to train mount would work in battle, but
    if anyone could make it work on a regular basis it`d be orogs.

    A sidenote about the cruelty of humanity versus that of other
    races. Yes, human have been extraordinarly cruel in real world
    history, and in comparison to the cruelty exibited by the various
    races in BR humans look pretty bad. However, it should be noted that
    the races of BR (including humans) have a somewhat idealized and
    sanitized history. Slaughter from time to time, but not the same
    level of abject horror we see in the real world on such an alarming
    basis. My point is that such a comparison is essentially inapt not
    because the facts are incorrect, but because in the fictionalized
    world to which it is being compared things have been purposefully toned down.

    Gary

  2. #52
    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
    That depends if you are counting one engagement or not - WWII had a number of genocidal activities, I won't go into comparisons (nanking, coventry anyone?) but Rwanda is measured by the millions and Stalin/Mao probably wiped out tens of millions of their own (although in percentage terms the Khmer rouge would storm ahead.)
    I only wanted to give proof of the human ability to be evil. I see no reason for why the Gorgon can't have human followers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
    If my recollections of Vikings is correct, they often didn't kill that many when raiding - if the villages fled for example (many did) the Vikings would simply loot and go, they didn't attack for the joy of slaughter so much as for wealth.

    I agree that my use of the vikings was a rather poor example. They were in fact more merchants than barbarians, who mainly raided poorly defended settlements and monastaries close to the waterways, and often engaged in commerce. However, they were not strangers to a bit of random rape and murder. They are actually credited for at least pert of the reason for the development of the feudal system - the Saxons and Franks needed a mobile rapid deployment force to counter these warriors who appeared and dissapeared almost like ghosts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
    I see the goblins as devastating to captured populations - conquest is their one chance to be the tough guys and they make sure that all the pain they have suffered is passed on ten fold. Goblins may live poor wretched lives because of their society, but that doesn't mean they think that the wealthier humans are blameless of oppressing them - it is certainly human nature to blame those wealthier for their wealth than accept that the poverty is self inflicted in many cultures.


    The low populations in Anuire could as a result be due to the invasions (isn't it time KGauck and Ryancaverny has an argument about populations?), although I agree with the post about raids as opposed to wars. Possibly a risk type strategy of 'towers' of troops moving around enemy territory without any expectation of keeping what is taken...
    I believe we are on the same page here. Mistrust and envy makes for a much better rationale for racial hatered and -fear. I find the clasical "they're evil, we're good" approach a bit naive. Of course, the rethorics doesn't need to be more advanced, but there has to be a reason behind it.

    I see goblin raids and wars as one of two options; either as political and commercial raids, where the goal is to prove ones worth as a ruler while bringing back goods and slaves. Or, as population control measures, happening every other generation or so, whenever the numbers of goblins have reached a too high level for the realm. -Every once and again, these two may be compined for a Great Horde-invasion.

    Your Risk-analogy is briliant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
    On human domination I would point out that humans aren't actually competing with elves/dwarves - neither breeds quickly enough to have a prayer in a war that drags out, humans are competing against goblins - and the superior discipline, lack of infighting, better magic etc tip the balance the human’s way. (I know that BR tends to say that it was human priests who won the wars against the elves, I note that the priests wrote the histories and are unlikely to say 'we lost twenty men for every slain elf, excellent, we breed a hundred for each one of theirs'.)
    Kudos for historical relativism.


    Quote Originally Posted by geeman
    A sidenote about the cruelty of humanity versus that of other
    races. Yes, human have been extraordinarly cruel in real world
    history, and in comparison to the cruelty exibited by the various
    races in BR humans look pretty bad. However, it should be noted that
    the races of BR (including humans) have a somewhat idealized and
    sanitized history. Slaughter from time to time, but not the same
    level of abject horror we see in the real world on such an alarming
    basis. My point is that such a comparison is essentially inapt not
    because the facts are incorrect, but because in the fictionalized
    world to which it is being compared things have been purposefully toned down.
    True. But if your palette consists of only black and white, it makes for an unnuanzed painting. Even Tolkien had humans among the most evil creatures in that story he wrote. Ringwraiths, anyone?
    -Harald

    Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.

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