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Thread: The Gorgon's Legions
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11-20-2006, 09:22 PM #31
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Their neighbors will have a conventional army? Diemed`s neighbors include a
priest and a true wizard, both of whom are are realm rulers and capable of
weilding realm magic. Both are "rebels" who have basically carved their
domains from land once belonging to Diemed and see Diemed as the greatest
threat on the Southern Coast. I imagine Diemed`s court to be well-prepared
(and perhaps paranoid) when it comes to matters such as anti-air, charms,
and illusions. Not to mention a giant spider that could probably climb
castle walls with no problem. That`s not to say they will necessarily have
developed adequite countermeasures, but there would certainly be an interest
in it.
The comments about being able to stop enemy spellcasters with assassinations
and intrigue (or your own sorcerers) don`t quite work, because these
justifications could be used against anything. Assassinating the enemy
regent or general works just as well as assassinating a wizard. And a good
enough sorcerer is always a good countermeasure against pretty much
anything. But why not have these techniques, plus a good castle?
-Lord Rahvin
On 11/20/06, The Swordgaunt <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3163
>
> The Swordgaunt wrote:
> I see that my relatively innocent question has sparked quite a debate.
> Perfect!
>
>
>
> Another thing I`ve noticed is the focus on physics, demography and
> fireballs. I stand firmly in the camp of threat assessment. Magic exists,
> not only birds fly, and there are some true tales told by old wifes. That
> said, I find it difficult to believe that Diemed will have Anti-Magic
> castles with heavy Anti-Air. Their neighbors will have a conventional army,
> and the house sourcerer can counter the enemy`s. I find it equally
> unreasonable to think that Mhoried will go for the standard medieval 20-30
> feet walls with open towers and battlements. Why? Should Prince Raesene
> decide to give it a go, he will probably come their way, and goblin
> teenagers will be the least of their worries.
>
>
>
> And given that a proper castle is not something thats built every
> generation, the extra precautions need not break the back of the honest,
> tax-paying peasantry. It will only take some extra time, and even in BR, the
> only constants are death and taxes. I say that the ruler who spends the
> extra dozens of bars on a proper fortification will be less of a fool than
> he who decides to use the "lowest bidder" strategy.
>
>
>
> My rationale is that the medieval castles were the back-bone of the
> arms-race of its era. Behind those walls, you could toss livestock at your
> enemies while calling their fathers hamsters. In BR, magic and myth must be
> taken into consideration.
>
>
>
> Hence my suggestions:
>
> Sloped walls - allows for more height, and gives increased durability.
>
> Covered towers - protects defenders from air-bursts and other bad ju-ju
> from above.
>
> Covered battlements - same as above.
>
> Ballistae - accurate long range weapon for ground and air defence.
>
> Raised archery and artillery positions - defence and support for outer
> towers and curtain wall vs. giants and other nasties. Also, height gives
> longer range.
>
> Spikes added to the top of walls and towers - thing really large scale
> barbed wires to stop really large things from climbing over.
>
> Motes, deep motes - same as in RL, but even more important.
>
>
>
> Of these measures, only the sloped walls will increase the cost
> considerably, as far as as I can see.
>
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>
>
>
--
ROLL THE DICE: Dedicated to the exploration of ideas and concepts in Game
Design and Theory.
http://lordrahvin.wordpress.com
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11-20-2006, 09:22 PM #32
Just to follow up on the idea that spurred the first post in this thread, I've thought more along the Gorgon's Legions-line.
I believe his armies will be organized in an orderly fasion, with the centre held by structured squares of pikemen to break enemy cavalry. These are backed up by shock troops consisting of Dwarves and Orog to deal with enemy infantry.
He will probably use whatever missile units he can muster to decimate the opponent before closing with his main force. These will most likely be Dwarven and Orog crossbowmen, human (and elven, if can persuade any) archers as well as giants hurling boulders and trees.
His flanks will most likely be held by more pikes and Orog.
He will have relatively few mounted troops, but what he can rally might be led by Blackguards or the dreaded Knights of Kal'Saitarak. These will most likely be of an inferior number compared to the Realms of Anuire, and will be witheald to such a moment where they can do the most good (or evil, as case would have it).
The one numerous race I haven't mentioned yet is the Goblins. He will most likely field vast amounts of this rabble, and they might be used in lieu of cavalry to soften a section of the enemies formation. Not by strength or speed, but by sheer numbers ("send in the Goblins, arrows cost money, the dead cost nothing"). Imagine the Anuirean general who believes himself facing an army of Goblin rabble, and suddenly sees the fell Legions of the Crown take the field.
The Wolf Riders and other maneverable units will act as outriders and scirmishers.
The other humanoid races will bolster the ranks per ability and combat-worthiness, and there will needs be some nasty monsters either among the ranks or harrassing the opponent before, during and/or after the battle.
This makes for a relatively slow, but heavy army, one that can easily fight night-battles. Levies and green troops will be sweapt off the field or broken, Knights will be shatterd by pikes, and footmen cut down. At least in theory.
As for racial tension and outright hatered, I see this as less of a problem. I am confident that all who serve the Gorgon in the field are fully aware the penalty for breaking ranks. After fifteen odd centuries, he's bound to have concocted numerous intricate punisments for just such an occation. IMO, this does not become a problem before the occupation face of the war. This is often a problem for generals leading a culturally diverse army, take, for instance, the crusades. His main advantage is his own competance and the fact that few among his lieutenants will challenge his leadership.
To tie these two topics together, I'm sure Prince Raesene has mastery of sige-tactics like none seen in Anuire for a long time -if ever. Finally, a question, is Raizhadik, the Wyrm of Kal'Saitark merely a pet?-Harald
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11-20-2006, 09:29 PM #33Originally Posted by Lord Rahvin
Well, my mistake. I'm more of a Taelshore man than a Soutern Coaster, but it still builds my argument. Magic and magical creatures are bad for you, and if you want to spend your hard earned GB's on a fortress, make the best of it.
Sweden, as a neutral nation, still makes darn good weaponry. Just in case.-Harald
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11-20-2006, 11:00 PM #34
Assassination:
Lord Rahvin: The comments about being able to stop enemy spellcasters with assassinations and intrigue (or your own sorcerers) don`t quite work, because these justifications could be used against anything. Assassinating the enemy regent or general works just as well as assassinating a wizard. And a good enough sorcerer is always a good countermeasure against pretty much anything. But why not have these techniques, plus a good castle?
Andrew: Kill a general and it's promotions all round with low overall effect for a professional army (barring the loss of a tactical genius or someone with the battlewise ability). Any large realm will have a handful of competent generals who can mount a solid if not exceptional defence.
By contrast if you kill the spell-caster you have eliminated the magical threat almost entirely - given the relatively large number of 'gaps' in source holdings any strong mage can live the high life as #1 somewhere, so it is unlikely that two powerful wizards would share commonly a realm.
but yes, a good castle is the foundation of the defence. Assassination is simply a cheaper way of dealing with wizards than magical fortifications - the defender has to think of every assault that could work, the attacker only one.
The Castle:
Swordgaunt: Hence my suggestions:
Sloped walls - allows for more height, and gives increased durability.
Covered towers - protects defenders from air-bursts and other bad ju-ju from above.
Covered battlements - same as above.
Ballistae - accurate long range weapon for ground and air defence.
Raised archery and artillery positions - defence and support for outer towers and curtain wall vs. giants and other nasties. Also, height gives longer range.
Spikes added to the top of walls and towers - thing really large scale barbed wires to stop really large things from climbing over.
Motes, deep motes - same as in RL, but even more important.
Andrew:
The first few suggestions are relatively cheap modifications that require no serious architectural thought or magical 'buffing' so I would expect them to be standard.
Higher walls are the goal of any castle builder limited only by terrain, skill and cash. Low walls are generally intended to stop raiders from carrying loot off than actually stopping them crossing.
Spikes - an overhang would be as effective and allow attacks on climbers from secure positions, overhangs are also far less likely to snag ladders and grapples.
Moats: These are surprisingly expensive and have an alarming habit of undermining foundations. That said why not? Of course building on granite is always a good way to discourage sappers.
I would note that giants, flying nasties, etc breed slowly enough that you only get one good fight out of them, like battles with dwarves and elves the slow birthrate requires a cautious approach. Similarly battlemagic is a one-shot battle tactic and if both sides have readied 'dispel realm magic' not particularly useful.
The army:
Swordgaunt: He will probably use whatever missile units he can muster to decimate the opponent before closing with his main force. These will most likely be Dwarven and Orog crossbowmen, human (and elven, if can persuade any) archers as well as giants hurling boulders and trees.
Andrew: I would expect he has a lot of goblin archers. Dwarves actually aren't very good bowmen in isolation - they are slow and easily out maneuvered.
Swordgaunt: ("send in the Goblins, arrows cost money, the dead cost nothing").
Andrew: A man after my own heart. Since goblins breed quickly its also an effective way of culling the excess population. Darwin also indicates that eventually a race of goblins will emerge that is either a) good at hiding from press-gangs, b) very lucky, c) breed as soon as they leave diapers, or d) pummel ogres for breakfast.
Swordgaunt: As for racial tension and outright hatered, I see this as less of a problem. I am confident that all who serve the Gorgon in the field are fully aware the penalty for breaking ranks. After fifteen odd centuries, he's bound to have concocted numerous intricate punisments for just such an occation. IMO, this does not become a problem before the occupation face of the war. This is often a problem for generals leading a culturally diverse army, take, for instance, the crusades. His main advantage is his own competance and the fact that few among his lieutenants will challenge his leadership.
Andrew: The Gorgon is hampered here by the nature of the troops he commands. The dwarves admittedly have extreme discipline, but orogs some and goblins none. Even with a core of dwarves in his army - likely acting as enforcers to keep the goblins and general scum in line - the Gorgon drives his armies, he doesn't lead them.
Frankly most awnsheghlien, the Gorgon amongst them simply don't have the selfless (even in aspect only) personality to win real loyalty from troops, inspire strong independent captains, forge disciplined units who will focus on the goal - conquest, rather than on distractions such as looting, etc.
The awnsheghlien 'me first' approach to life encourages their followers to act the same way which is fatal to the esprit de corps required for a real army - the Gorgon can force people to fight for him, he can promise them blood and gold, but he cannot convince them to sacrifice themselves for him or their fellows.
His hobby of slaughtering generals who are either fail or are too successful is also unlikely to inspire a strong officer corps making him have to do everything and the surviving officers excessively cautious of failure or delivering bad news.
He is also hamstrung as regards punishment. Out of sight is out of mind for most goblins. In any case the reason why the humanoids tolerate an awnsheghlien master is because random excessive violence is so fundamental a part of their lives, reining in a goblin army is an excercise in futility, the Gorgon's problems have only just started if he captures a town as his troops natural inclination is to steal anything not nailed down and burn anything that is.
Brutal punishment can enforce discipline to a degree but must be focused on the guilty to be effective - can anyone see the Gorgon being able to tell two random goblins apart, or his enforcer's caring? Random punishment encourages dissent it doesn't prevent it.
The Gorgon is the bogeyman across Cerilla for good reasons, working for him is working for the thing that betrayed his family, his nation, his god and was twisted into a monstrosity for his crimes, if he could control his violence and win the loyalty of any but monsters and the wretched he would have been emperor a long time ago.
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11-20-2006, 11:02 PM #35
I agree that Mundane structures would be as well defended against Magical, or aerial attack as possible. However, I think cost would be a huge deterrant to having much magical defenses. especially in BirthRight. Castles are already incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Magical defenses cost far more than typical defenses, and you can double (or more) the cost according to sanctioned rules.
Look at the modern World. A nuclear strike is a real possibility, equivalent to a powerful wizard on the battle field. Yet military troops and bases around the world are poorly defended against such a threat. This isn't because of a lack of know how, but because of the cost of doing so.
My point is that defenses are created based on what you are financially capable of doing, not necessarily on what is the best defense. Afterall, the best defense is a strong offense. You build your defenses based on what the likliest threats are, then create special forces to take care of the unexpected. It would be much more financially viable to enlist the aid of a wizard as part of your court than to try and build defenses to protect against an onslaught from one. What would you rahter have, the level 2 castle that is defended against aerial, and magical assault, or the level 6 castle that is well enough protected against aerial assault, and a Wizard of your own to challenge any comers.When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire
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11-20-2006, 11:58 PM #36Originally Posted by geeman
Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
Originally Posted by Andrew Tall
Originally Posted by ploesch-Harald
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11-21-2006, 02:20 AM #37
Russia was a giant continental power with a third more industrial power than Germany and 164 million compared to 69 million people. Russia produced more planes, more tanks, and more war material of nearly every kind. Given these advantages, how could Soviet Russia fail to roll right over Nazi Germany? Why, rather, was her victory so slow and so costly? Did Stalin's purges help, or hurt his war effort? Did the brutality of the Soviet state enhance its war-making power? If so, why did Germany achieve a casualty ratio of 16:1 at the start of the war, 8:1 through most of the war, and even in the final weeks, still achieve a 4:1 casualty ratio, when the industrial, geographic, strategic, and demographic advantages lay entirely with Russia?
The answer is certainly not with the marvels of Stalin and his state terror.
A metaphore of the Gorgon to Stalin would clearly explain why, despite his personal power, the Gorgon cannot triumph. Stalin had tremendous population and indutrial advantages, and still nearly lost. The Gorgon starts with a smaller realm compared to the rest of Anuire, a much smaller population and resource base. The Gorgon to be successful has to be more like Germany, who simultaneously fought against three world powers (two continental powers and one oceanic power) and still performed so well despite being surrounded, isolated, and hugely outnumbered.
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11-21-2006, 07:13 AM #38
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I have only one thought about the idea that goblins in
Cerilia are so chaotic:
They aren`t.
The racial alignment of the Goblins is Lawful Evil.
They have a strict pecking order and would seem (to me
at least) to be a very organized and warlike race.
The Common Goblin is a natural coward, but the larger
Hobgoblins and Bugbears are true soldiers (with the
Hobgoblins being much more organized and worthy even
than the shock-trooper bugbears).
I see the Gorgon making much stronger use of spear
armed Hobgoblin troops than others are thinking. They
are a great deal stronger than the common Anuirean
Levy soldier and probably the equal of a common
man-at-arms.
If the goblins didn`t eat all the horses they can lay
their hands on, hobgoblin cavalry would be something
worthy of considering. Even so, goblin skirmishers
(or even "horde units") could easily equal Anuirean
Levies and the bugbears are just as stout as Orogs.
And the other danger that few are mentioning are the
ravenous bands of Gnolls that the Gorgon would no
doubt use to harass his enemies. Fast moving and sly,
they would make excellent and powerful skirmishers
that could attack lines of supply.
After giving it more thought I think the Gorgon would
use:
Hobgoblin Pike units (much more numerous than Orogs or
dwarves) to hold his center.
Goblin skirmishers with bows.
Bugbear shock troops for strikes between pike units to
mangle enemy lines.
Dwarven units would be an elite used as a reserve, or
in extremes as second line to push on the goblins; the
population of Mur-Kilad seems too small to support the
idea that the Gorgon could use them as a mainstay
force.
Orogs too are rarer than most think I believe. Rarely
coming to the surface in Anuirean lands, I think they
would be more akin to mercenaries for the Gorgon than
mainstay troops.
Trolls and Ogres would be rare shock troops; although
Stonecrown Ogres seem to be somewhat easy to come by I
suppose. Still, these units would be hard to keep in
the field simply because of their appetites...although
deserters could easily fill their pots. :-)
Human troops, mostly slave-soldier conscripts from
Kiergaard, could also make a strong center line; but
their morale is no doubt going to be very low. Most
human troops would make better garrison forces. I
don`t see the Gorgon having many human volunteers; and
those that were would be the slime of the earth
mercenaries...possibly even from the Vos.
I do see the most evil of humans following the Gorgon;
men who would even turn the stomach of such evil men
as Gavin of Ghoere. These men and women would be
individually powerful to dare go into the lands of the
Gorgon`s Crown to offer their services...and most
likely richly rewarded by "Prince" Raesene. A core of
powerful Dark Knights that are well geared to war.
Other cavalry would be hard for the Gorgon to come by.
Again perhaps the land of Kiergaard, vassal nation
that it is (however unwillingly) could provide some
horses and mounted men-at-arms; but the needed land
support for true knights wouldn`t be seen in the lands
of the Gorgon`s domain.
Wolf-riders are poor cavalry even against a mounted
man-at-arms...a horse can pound a wolf into the dirt
as easily as the goblin riding it; and that is after
the man-at-arms has had his turn first with his lance.
On the field of battle I never pictured the Gorgon
using many of his different races in true unity. I
pictured instead a center of Goblins as a seperate
army from the Dwarven Army reserve. A third army of
mercenaries would be used as needed; but rarely as
fodder...goblins are fodder...mercenaries are best
used as shock troops and to shore up faltering
lines...used even before the even more valuable
dwarven army reserve. Mercenaries include such races
as Orogs, Ogres, Trolls and what humans may be had. I
never saw the slave-soldier conscripts of Kiergaard as
anything other than garrison troops or at best as the
race used on the battle-field to fill in the gaps
between the different races to mollify racial hatreds
and prevent the goblins and dwarves from carving into
each other once the enemy was defeated.
The Gorgon`s "Personal" army would be filled by his
Dark Knights, an elite Dwarven force (especially
filling the role of siege troops), the most powerful
terror troops he could find (giants, ogres and
trolls), and lastly a strong contingent of human heavy
foot and horsemen equal to men-at-arms levied from
Kiergaard and actually trained and paid well by their
"Prince" (sarcasm intended). The Gorgon knows he is
no longer human; but his desire to rule the Anuirean
people would keep him in the habit of a strong
contingent of human troops.
All just my opinion.
Anthony Edwards
P.S. Raizhadik is not a pet...he is a prisoner of the
Gorgon. To let that beast go would most likely cause
more damage to the Gorgon`s Crown than ol` stone-butt
would care to think about.
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11-21-2006, 02:03 PM #39Originally Posted by kgauck
It was not my intention to drag too many lines between the two, but merely to use this as an example as to why I don't see that killing lieutennants and having substandard troops equals inevitable defeat.
Early WWII Red Army was hampered by the officer purge. Stalin placed all divisions under his direct command (a bit like Hitler in the latter pert of the war), and most command posts were manned by young, inexperienced, loyal party members. This contributed in no small part to the total collapse of the front line units during Operation Barbarossa. He was eventually forced to bring deported generals back from Gulag to lead his army groups.
Gorgy doesn't have this problem. A medieval general were close to his troops, and the need to coordinate a multi-pronged attack involving several different armies was seldom a problem. That said, Peters Evil Overlord List says:
17. When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to their advice.
[...]
37. If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a battle, I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant.
The matter of population is a bit more acute, but Gorgy is bound to have thought about this. It's been five and a half century since the last time. Long enough to make most humans regard the threat from Kal'Saitarak as someting more fit to scare children than to rule a Realm after.
In my campaign, his agents have been infiltrated in most of the larger ruling houses, playing their part in weakening the realms. The Archduke and the Prince have, not entirely unwilling, been brought to war with eachother. Others have been pushed into enmity by feeding the alredy bloated egos of the Scions. In fact, most of my campaign has been focused on the strife among neighbours (historians have alredy dubbed these times as the Age of Strife).
Further, the Gorgon is probably the most powerful magician alive, and by sezing the Sorce in the provinces he will attack, he can raze fortifications and strike the land with plague and other horrible acts of mass destruction.
Should the rulers of Cerillia cast all differences aside and ally, they will be the victors. The Gorgon is with little doubt aware af this, and he will work hard to hinder this as long as possible. Divided they will fall, united they will stand.Last edited by The Swordgaunt; 11-21-2006 at 02:07 PM.
-Harald
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11-21-2006, 10:30 PM #40
Re Swordgaunt:
Great list - I hadn't come across it.
On timing, I thought that the Gorgon's generational rivings were fairly regular (say once every sixty years with raids alternatively into Anuire, Khinasi and Rjurik), although these are not wars of conquest but harvesting of the stronger bloodlines.
On the multi-pronged co-ordination problem I think it's an inevitable part of a multi-racial force - I can't see goblins and dwarves taking orders from each other well - and the Gorgon probably wouldn't want this either - if a charismatic general can at most suborn their own race then the Gorgon will always be able to a) squash them and b) afford to lose them. I've always seen the Gorgon as someone who wants his armies to hate each other in order to make sure they never try to combine and turn on him.
Terror can of course work - it was the basis for most of the communist regimes and a number of religious ones, but it's very inefficient which is one reason why these systems collapsed or were overtaken by more innovative realms (although they can last a long time, security issues generally arise only when one generation hands to the next (not a problem for the Gorgon) or the regime decides to relax the terror (ditto)).
I have to admit I've never seen the Gorgon as a great magician - I saw the L16 in the boxed set write-up as a 'well he's supposed to be the best at everything so he should have this too' rather than real thought on the matter as everything else screams 'paramount fighter/general'. He gets a lot of RP from sources due to low population levels of course but any wizardry would be sufficient for that. Although his wizard levels survived into the BRCS I would note that dual/multiclasses combo's were far cheaper in AD&D than D20, maintaining his original power level would have probably cut him down to L5 or so mage, enough to hold sources, know the basics and tell if someone if bluffing but something he sees as an add-on not as a core strength.
A look at some elven and Khinasi realms shows a fair number of wizard's are higher level, not to mention the dragons and other lost. That said obviously realm magic is something he would make substantial use of, and as a powerful wizard he might value the land more than the inhabitants.
On leading from the front / rear it’s a toughie. Lead from the front and you are too involved in fighting to keep a good overview, lead from the rear and know that you could have held the line / broken the charge when your soldiers fail.
Punishment. Obviously the Gorgon can simply slaughter en masse, but even goblins need some time to breed so he can't go overboard too often. Fundamentally goblins may not be the brightest bunnies but they will only follow as long as think the alternative is worse, spend their lives like water for too long and the well will run dry.
I was thinking though more along lines that the goblins simply drift off and sneak home - something smaller goblins excel at, once home they are just another goblin and untraceable, of course he can divert troops to stop desertion - but that's a waste of troops he can trust and needs elsewhere.
Re: Dalor
On goblins, LE alignment noted, I had forgotten the range of goblins and fixed on the whiny end of the race (who can be chaotic without changing the overall alignment as they are dominated by the others).
Hobgoblin spearmen are cool would you be thinking pike or missile weapon-type spears? As pike they should be very effective.
Kiergard definitely as garrison troops, can you imagine using any of the cannibalistic races (included goblins per the novels)? Gnolls would make good infiltrators - they roam all over Cerilla even into the heartlands so they have to be good as passing without much notice.
Goblin worg-riders, I think worgs are supposed to be reasonably large and therefore not as trample-able as wolves, although I may just have watched LOTR too often.
I'm with the dark knights, but think that he could actually have real follower/worshippers not just mercenaries - the gorgon can after all grant spells to his followers, is immortal, etc - a king was godlike to many of his subjects (the divine right of kings) but the Gorgon makes them look like children. The knights could actually be far more honourable than he is - the head of a religion can easily get by with a 'do as I say not as I do approach'. As his strongest, most loyal troops they would then likely have far greater latitude in dealing with issues that arose. Of course he would need to show them at least some honour, etc in return.
Regarding Orogs I got the impression from Warlock of the Stonecrowns that they followed the Drake rather than the Gorgon, but that could have been after I modified the adventure...
Regarding Raizhadik I see him as the secret weapon - unleashed on an army he'll tear it apart regardless of who it is just out of fury at his imprisonment. Although if I was the gorgon I wouldn't want the other dragons to know that I'd kept one of their own as a slave... Half a dozen Cerillan dragons could make a mess of Kal-Saitharak in short order and it might be enough to rouse them - if only to send a message to the other awnsheghlien.
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