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Thread: Sheghlien class

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Sheghlien class

    Hmm, I'm opening myself to the sort of flames the Falcon got over UA bloodlines, but I was asked to put my money where my mouth was with the 'fey beauty' class after I commented on Mr Gauck's version of the Siren, so I've tried creating some Awnsheghlien / Ehrsheghlien classes.

    I'll put the classes in follow up emails for space reasons, but comment on what I've done and why in this post to improve the targetting of flames.

    Method of class creation:
    After failing miserably to understand the existing awnsheghlien template (P174 BRCS) I took some monsters from the monster manual (ver 3 not 3.5 which I don't have). The Ver 3 DM's guide (ditto) says that a level 10 Fighter has a CR of 10, etc so I took the monsters CR (3 for a centaur, 7 for a hill giant) and worked to it in the same number of levels.

    Flaws:
    Flaw I. CR and Level.
    The match I've done is (highly) imperfect as, amongst other points generally monsters do not have useful magical items (reducing their CR compared to a standard PC class), high CR's seem to break this link - the Gorgon is 46th level but CR28 for example. I expect that as a result the classes should be 'stretched' over a few levels to reflect the monsters low CR.

    I note also that where a monster can be played the ECL is usually different to the CR although the mathematical link is not obvious to me.

    Flaw II. The second major flaw is that monsters with high CR's tend to have very high stats meaning that the breakdowns I have done pump the PC with stat increases, the assumption that the PC is physically warping to generate the ability increase reduces this somewhat - people will talk if a L7 brute 12 foot high or so walks into court and tries to be diplomatic but I doubt that these increases are balanced.

    Flaw III.
    Further many awnsheghlien are inspired by monsters not slavish duplicates of them. Although magical abilities can be swopped relatively easily, the brute has few abilities and therefore is very linear.

    Flaw IV. The classes as they stand do not tie to blood abilities etc.

    Flaw V. The classes ignore the differing strength of the bloodform (minor: bloodmark, major: bloodform/trait, great bloodform/trait). Although minimum strengths could be imposed for different strength bloodlines.

    Comment:
    Still its a start. Any ideas on how to improve are welcome.

    Apologies for the number of posts I've made on the site btw, I've come back to BR after a few years away and am like a kid in a candy store with about the same level of restraint. (Plus work ordered me to take leave and I am bored).

    Andrew

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Class No.1. Based on the Centaur. (And why not start with an Ehrshegh?)

    Centaur ehrshegh class.
    Level HD Ability increase AC incr Other
    1 +2d8 +1 Str +1 +10 mvt
    2 +d8 +1 str, +1 con +1
    3 +d8 +1 str, +1 con +0 +10 mvt

    Skills points 2+int, x4 at L1 if first class. Ranger list. Saves good ref and will. +1 BAB / level. Note. Because the primary power of the class is ability score increases they should either not gain the normal ability score bonus for level advancement, or have to sacrifice an increase from the centaur class at the appropriate level.

    At 3rd level an ehrshegh without other class abilities is about the equal of a normal centaur (same speed, +4d8 HD, +3 str, +2 con, but with (2+int)x7 skill points not the standard centaur 2xint + 2/ehd = 16+4 = 20 skill points. Skills as ranger.)

    The class could be extended for 1-2 levels, but beyond that the lack of abilities (fighter feats, barbarian rage) would make it difficult to keep it level with a PC class.

    Level HD Ability increase AC incr Other
    4 +2d8 +1 str, +1 con +1
    5 +d8 +1 str +1 +10 mvt,

    Note. I based this on the 3e monster manual, the 8+3d8 HD is roughly equivalent to 10+2d10 hp for a fighter both having an average of 21, the fighter is likely to have better armour (the centaur can’t wear most armour and is large), the centaur is faster but less manoeuvrable, the fighter has several extra feats, the centaur has better ability scores but this equates to only +1 to both stn and con rolls.

    To tie this into the BR system more a scion might need bloodmark and, say, 11 BP to take the first level, bloodtrait (major) and 13 BP to take L3, bloodtrait (great) and 15 BP to take L5.

    Andrew

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Brute awnshegh class. Based on Giant (MM page 98, std D&D version)

    Level HD Ability increase AC incr Other
    1 +2d8 +1 str, +1 con +1
    2 +2d8 +2 str, +1 con +1
    3 +1d8 +1 str, +1 con +1 +5 ft
    4 +2d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 10’ reach, large
    5 +2d8 +1 str, +1 con +1 Throw rocks
    6 +1d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 +10 ft
    7 +2d8 +1 str, +1 con +1 Catch rocks
    8 +1d8 +2 str, +1 con +1
    9 +1d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 Elemental subtype
    10 +2d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 +5 spell levels / minor ability
    11 +1d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 +5 spell levels, huge, 15’ reach
    12 +1d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 +5 spell levels
    13 +2d8 +2 str, +1 con +1 +5 spell levels

    Skills points 2+int, x4 at L1 if first class. Chose from Barbarian list. Saves good fort. +1 BAB / level.

    At L7 the PC would be roughly equivalent to a hill giant, at L8 a stone giant, at L9 a frost giant, at L10 a fire giant, at L11 a cloud giant and at L13 a storm giant.

    Note 1. Around L8/9 the pattern of HD and ability score increases changes slightly in order to keep pace with the giants in the MM.
    Note 2. Because the primary power of the class is ability score increases they should either not gain the normal ability score bonus for level advancement, or have to sacrifice an increase from the brute class at the appropriate level.

    Birthright adjustment.
    Bloodmark and 10+level BP to take any levels. To take L7 must have a major bloodtrait/form ability, to take L10 must have a great bloodtrait/form ability.

    The ogre on P173/4 of BRCs could be a 3rd / 4th level brute and a 6th level fighter for example. Although his BAB is higher than the above class would indicate. The Gorgon otoh would be a L20 fighter, L16 mage, L12 ish brute, although his gaze, spell resistance and damage resistance don’t fit and his hit-point bonus of 552 suggests he is a L46 creature so the above advancement would be two levels too slow (!)

    Andrew

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    Fey I. awn/ehrshegh class. Based on Nymph/Pixie (MM page 143/172, std D&D version)

    Level HD Ability increase Nymph Pixie
    1 +1d6 High stats spells, glory I Spell I
    2 High stats spells Spell II, Invisible I, arrow I
    3 +1d6 High stat spells Spell III
    4 High stats spells, glory II Invisible II, arrow II
    5 +1d6 High stats spells Invisible III
    6 High stats spells, glory III Spell IV

    Skills (8+int) x4 at L1 if first class, chosen from the bard list. BAB: +1/2. Good saves: Ref and Will.

    Powers:
    High stats: A fey beauty adds 1 to two of cha, dex, int or wis each level.

    Nymph abilities
    Spells: A Nymph can cast spells as a druid, and gains 1 spell caster level per level.

    Glory I: Victim must save at Will at DC 9+ the fey beauty’s charisma modifier or lose their primary sensory ability (sight for humans, scent for dogs, hearing for bats, etc) for an hour. This is a constant effect that is triggered if the Fey Beauty is perceived by the victim with the sense in question. This has a range of 30 feet unless the sense in question has a shorter range.

    Glory II: Victim must save at Will at DC 11+ the fey beauty’s charisma modifier or lose their primary sensory ability (sight for humans, scent for dogs, hearing for bats, etc) permanently. This is a constant effect that is triggered if the Fey Beauty is perceived by the victim with the sense in question. This has a range of 60 feet unless the scent has a shorter range.

    Glory III: Once every 10 minutes the Fey Beauty can enhance their glory. The save DC increases by 2 and victims are slain if they directly perceive the Fey Beauty. The Fey Beauty must interact slightly with the sense in question, i.e. smile winningly at the victim / dance (sight), sing (hearing), breathe heavily (scent), stroke the skin (touch), kiss (taste) the victim. This has a range of 30 feet unless the sense itself has a shorter range.

    Higher levels to the class (7+) could expand the glory to include a secondary sense (hearing for humans for example), increase the DC of the glory, etc.

    Pixie abilities
    Arrow I: At 2nd level a pixie can enchant arrows fired to cause memory loss instead of damage. Fort save DC 15 or lose all memories (skills, levels etc unaffected but personal memories gone).
    Arrow II: At 4th level the pixie can enchant the arrow to cause sleep (as the spell but any hit die) instead of damage, victims have a fort save (DC 15) to avoid.

    Invisible I. Invisibility 3/day, can suppress at will.
    Invisible I. Invisibility 6/day, can suppress at will.
    Invisible III. Invisible naturally even when attacking, can suppress at will.

    Spell I. 1/day each can detect chaos, good, evil, law and thoughts.
    Spell II. 1/day Entangle and permanent image (visual and auditory only).
    Spell III. 1/day dispel magic.
    Spell IV. 1/day Otto’s irresistible dance.

    Note: huge number of skills, lousy HP.

    Birthright. I would suggest 10 BP + 1/level as a requisite, also bloodmark (at L1), bloodform/trait at the major rank to reach L5 and at great rank to reach L7.

    Andrew

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    Fey II.
    Level HD Ability increase Fossergrim Oread
    1 +1d6 High stats Fast heal 1 Spells I, burrow
    2 +1d6 Fast heal 2 Spells II, earth mastery
    3 +1d6 High stat Fast heal 3 Spells III
    4 +1d6 Fast heal 4 Spells IV
    5 +1d6 High stats Fast heal 5, true strike Spells V
    6 +1d6 Spells VI
    7 +1d6 High stats Spells VII

    Skills (6+int) x4 at L1 if first class from bard list. BAB: +1/2. Good saves: Ref and Will.

    I used these fey to get examples of physically stronger less magical fey, the tied characteristic would reduce game-play, so I would suggest this element is ignored for the Ehrshegh, although its powers might only function in a province with a high source rating (5+) indicated unspoilt wilderness nearby.

    High stats. The fey adds 1 to two different ability scores every other level. Each Fey can choose from 3 ability scores chosen at creation. These must include Charisma and are usually Dex, Con or Cha for a Fossergrim and Stn/Con/Cha for an Oriad.

    Fossergrim are tied to their waterfall and its environs (100 feet, movement further away causes illness and death after 4d6 hours). Their fossergrim abilities work only within the splashing water of their waterfall. Source: Fiend folio p79.

    Fast heal: Within the splashing water of their waterfall, and 100 feet or so downstream the Fossergrim gains fast healing at the stated rate.

    True strike: Within the splashing water of their waterfall (the fall and 100 feet or so downstream) the Fossergrim treats every attack at another being also within the splashing water as if under a true strike spell.

    A Fossergrim looks like a handsome young human male with blue/white hair.

    Oriad’s are tied to a mountain. If they travel more than a mile from their mountain they sicken and die after 4d6 hours. Their Oriad powers work only when on or in their mountain.

    Burrow. The oriad can pass through earth and stone without any trace at their normal speed. A passwall spell expels them from the earth/stone and stuns them for a round.

    Earth Mastery. +1 to attack and damage rolls if their opponent is touching the ground.

    Oriad spells.
    Spell I Soften earth and stone 3/day
    Spell II Stone tell 3/day
    Spell III Spike stones 3/day
    Spell III Teleport to any other location on/in their mountain 3/day
    Spell IV Charm monster 3/day, stone shape 3/day
    Spell V Stone tell at will
    Spell VI Teleport to any other location on/in their mountain at will, Transmute mud to rock
    Spell VII Earthquake, Move earth 1/day each.

    An Oriad looks like a stern strong humanoid female with stony skin, they tend to wear gowns of woven metal and jewellery of roughly cut gems and precious stones.

    Birthright. Bloodline requirements as Fey I.
    I included these to try to see the sort of abilities a Fey class would have that got 1 hdie per level, and to give a spread of magical abilities that were not linked to a spell-caster class level.

    Andrew

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    Lillend
    Level HD Ability increase Spell casting
    1 +1d6 +1 to a stat fly 20’, poison immunity
    2 +1d6 +1 to a stat +1 level fly 30’, immune to normal fire.
    3 +1d6 +1 to a stat +1 level fly 40’, fire resist 5. Land speed -10.
    4 +1d6 +1 to a stat +1 level fly 50’, improved grab, fire resist 10.
    5 +1d6 +1 to a stat +1 level fly 60’, fire resistance 15.
    6 +1d6 +1 to a stat +1 level fly 70’, Constrict, fire resistance 15.

    Bard spells. A Lillend gains a level of bardic spell-casting at levels 2-7.

    A fully transformed Lillend looks like a beautiful humanoid with two large feathered wing, feathered hair, and a long serpents tail instead of legs.

    Skills (4+int) x4 at L1 if first class from bard list. BAB: +1. Good saves: all.

    Birthright. Technically not a Fey, but still an appropriate monster for an ehrshegh to use as a template. I would use bloodline requirements as noted for the Nymph.

    sorry about the lousy tables btw, if I knew how to keep them lined up I would do it. If you want me to email the table to you (or flame without scorching the forum) my email is abotall@yahoo.co.uk.

    Andrew

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    Lammasu / Androsphinx template

    Level HD Ability increase Spells Physical Androsphinx Lammasu
    1 +1d10 Bonus I Claw 1d6. Circle I
    2 +1d10 Bonus II +1 level Fly
    3 +1d10 Bonus I +1 level Fly Circle II
    4 +1d10 Bonus II +1 level Pounce, Large Invisible
    5 +1d10 Bonus I Fly, claw 1d8 Roar Spells
    6 +1d10 Bonus II +1 level Fly Circle III
    7 +1d10 Bonus I +1 level Rake Roar II
    8 +1d10 Bonus II +1 level Fly Circle IV
    9 +1d10 Bonus I Claw 2d6 Roar III Door


    General abilities:
    Bonus I. +1 to strength.
    Bonus II. +1 to strength and +1 to another ability.
    Claw. The PC gains a claw attack with the stated base damage, or improves their existing damage.
    Fly. +12 ft. if average manoeuvrability or +15 ft if poor manoeuvrability.
    Spells: Spell casting is as a cleric.

    Androsphinx
    Roar I. 1/day: All within 500 feet must make a will save (DC19) or be affected by fear for 12 rounds.
    Roar II. 1/day: All within 250 feet must make a will save (DC19) or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds, if within 90 feet deafened (no save) for 2d6 rounds. Can choose when roaring to use Roar I instead of a roar II, treated as a roar I anyway unless targets were affected by roar I earlier in the encounter.
    Roar III. 1/day: All within 250 feet must make a fort save (DC19) or take 2d4 temporary strength damage for 2d4 rounds, if the victim is medium sized or smaller Fort save (DC19) or thrown to the ground taking 2d8 damage, Roar III does 50 pts of damage to stone/crystalline objects within 90 feet (ref save DC19 to avoid). PC can choose when roaring to use Roar I/II instead of a roar III, treated as a roar I/II anyway unless targets were affected by roar I/II earlier in the encounter.

    Lammasu
    Circle I. Lammasu radiates a magic circle against evil with a 5 foot radius as a constant action. If dispelled it can be re-instated next round as a free action.
    Circle II. Circle expands to a 10 foot radius.
    Circle III. Circle expands to a 15 foot radius.
    Circle IV. Circle expands to a 20 foot radius.
    Door. Can cast dimension door 1/day.
    Invisible. 2/day can cast improved invisibility.
    Spells. The Lammasu gains a level of cleric spell-casting ability.

    The sphinx is of course a Khinasi Awnshegh, I ddon't have 3.5 stats so I could compare but note that these 'classes' are just an attempt to give an idea of progression, etc and would need (probably quite a lot of) modification to be used in practice.

    Still, I hope they were worth your time to read them. Any ideas on how to make them proper awnshegh/ehrshegh rather than just hack job monster classes would be gratefully appreciated.

    Andrew

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Here was a thread/poll for the BRCs on this issue a while ago - with no real clear decision.

    http://www.birthright.net/showthread...ht=awnsheglien

    I personnaly like the UA bloodlines as a basis for transformaitonal things like awhn/erw.

    I don't like it as a basis for scions themselves. The system reaks of an inate physical transformation as its basis, at least to me.
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link- I should have searched harder obviously!

    I'm not sure how the UA system works for the barely human awnshegh though - the problem with super stats for high level monsters. The gorgon for example has str 43, con 34. Even if these stats both started at 18 he's boosted them by 41 points, not to mention his other stats of 13, 17, 18 and 19. He'll get a dozen or so from class level boosts but that's still a lot of ability bonuses from being an awnshegh and the UA bloodlines just don’t have that kind of power as I read it – at most they are supposed to equal 3 extra levels for a 12th level character.

    I'd agree that the classes should not be used as a basis for scions whichever method is used - I'm a balance freak and the only way I can see a standard PC class being comparable to the ones I scribbled is if there are substantial 'out of mechanic' downsides to the 'shegh progression. This is hard to judge though - if one PC in the party is a 'shegh they can get the others to interact for them, although I can see that courtiers might start grumbling about their kings 'pet beast'.

    That said the in-game downside from being heavy / non-human form / bulky / monstrous etc will go some way to reducing the lure of a few ‘shegh class levels to boost abilities.

    From reading the thread I would agree with the idea of several base classes, i.e. might oriented, magic focuses, guileful, etc – I tried to show something like this with the brute / fey split. Possibly each class could then have minor /intermediate /major forms as with the US bloodlines to reflect the degree of physical changes - if the 'shegh really wants a lot of power they have to accept that their bodies will change. This puts much of the power in the transformation not in the specific level attained.

    In terms of the weaknesses mentioned in the thread I would suggest that this is an alternate way to increase the ability at a given level - i.e. the if the vampire wants to increase the basic blood-drain bite attack into a 'drained of all life in 3 rounds' power he has to take weaknesses like 'vulnerable to sunlight and stakes'. This allows the weakness to be tailored to the desired power/ 'shegh in question and increases the non-human aspect to awnsheghlien.

    I would note though that the difference in blood-form/trait major - great reflects one great bloodline power only - if it is used in a similar manner to the UA bloodlines the increase is could be greater than a normal great bloodline power warrants.

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 04:46 AM 11/2/2006, Andrew Tall wrote:

    >Hmm, I`m opening myself to the sort of flames the Falcon got over UA
    >bloodlines, but I was asked to put my money where my mouth was with
    >the `fey beauty` class after I commented on Mr Gauck`s version of
    >the Siren, so I`ve tried creating some Awnsheghlien / Ehrsheghlien classes.

    The class(es) you presented look pretty much like the
    awn-/ersheghlien character class I`ve used to write up the new NPCs
    over the years. The class itself is pretty simple. What it requires
    is an extensive system of "developments" and "disadvantages" that is
    basically the same concept. As a result of trying to portray just
    about every possible transformation, however, the class winds up
    being a sort of BR specific omni-monster character class, which makes
    for an extensive system of developments and disadvantages. One can
    either play it by ear, or one can have such a system written up that
    attempts to deal with any eventuality. Either method has its own
    merits, but on the whole I prefer to have things thought out as much
    as possible in advance. One has to wing it from time to time anyway
    in gaming, so why not get as much thought out as possible in advance?

    Gary

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