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  1. #11
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    Guys, we`re getting a little off topic. Some truly great points have been
    brought up so far, and I`m very interested to know people`s opinions on the
    topic of alternate reward systems. I haven`t yet heard anything about GURPS
    reward system, or what kind of situations govern the allotment of
    domain-level rewards to individual characters. I`d be very interested in
    learning details about these, as well as any other ideas anyone can
    contribute...


    On 10/5/06, Daniel McSorley <mcsorley.1@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > On 10/5/06, cutenfluffy <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    > > This lack tends to imply that the traditional dungeon bash of kicking in
    > doors, killing
    > > monsters and taking their stuff is what D&D is all about. And in truth
    > if that is what you
    > > really want to do, then go play WOW.
    >
    > That`s so cute. You just registered and you`re already trolling and
    > telling people that they play wrong and bad, and your way is better
    > than theirs.
    >
    > Could somebody ban this guy?
    >
    > --
    > Daniel McSorley
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Birthright-l Archives:
    > http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    >
    >
    >



    --
    ROLL THE DICE: Dedicated to the exploration of ideas and concepts in Game
    Design and Theory.
    http://lordrahvin.wordpress.com

  2. #12
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    aww, leave cutenfluffy alone, he doesn't know better yet.

    Cutenflufy, the Difference between DnD and other systems is that in DnD you have a choice, while in systems like Gurps You have to take disadvantages or start far inferior to your peers. Truly, in some ways Gurps discourages Role-Playing.

    In DnD I can choose to begin play as an old retired soldier that mostly gets drunk and has lost most of my skill. Then, as I start to adventure I drink less and gain more power. All without ever taking an actual disadvantage, or slowing my advancement compared to others unless I choose to. While in a system like Gurps, I might have to contrive a background like this, not because I want to, but because I need the points to make a character on par with everyone elses. Then, to get rid of the actual disadvantages this gives me I have to slow my advancement compared to those that are happy with their disadvantages.

    That's all in addition to additional rules that can be created or used from other sources to give advantages and disadvantages from such activities.

    The point is that Role-Playing has nothing to do with the advantages and disadvantages you might take. If you have to get something to take a disadvantage, then you aren't trying to roleplay, you are forcing role-playing on them.

    That's not to say a system like Gurps or Champions uses is bad. They can actually be excellent tools to break power gamers out of the "I can't have a disadvantage and still have fun!" attitude that many take. They can also be allot of fun to play. But they are not superior to DnD except if your goal is to have a slow steady progression, instead of the incremental increases you get in DnD (Leveling). But there is advancement in all Role-playing Games.
    Last edited by ploesch; 10-05-2006 at 06:00 PM.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

  3. #13
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    GURPS? Please, kill me...D20 is no better or worse than other games, it all comes down to the DM and Players running the game. Last I playerd GURPS (or another system), there were no levels, but players still wanted cash, point rewards to advance skills with etc.

    The primary rewards in any ROLE-playing (note the title of the game) should be be character and story-related. The develompent of a character's personality, history, contacts etc., are rewards in themselves. As are the act of overcomming difficulty. The rest, moeny, experience etc. are just fluff; ways to visualize the success to the PCs.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  4. #14
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight
    The develompent of a character's personality, history, contacts etc., are rewards in themselves. As are the act of overcomming difficulty. The rest, moeny, experience etc. are just fluff; ways to visualize the success to the PCs.
    While this is all true, I do not agree it is, or should be, the primary rewards in this role-playing GAME (note the nature of the activity). Denying the rewards of level advancement and all that entails (BAB, spells, feats, etc...) is not in the spirit of DnD, and therefore not in the spirit of Birthright. The fact is, Birthright was designed for a time when DnD included racial level limits, severely restricted multi-classing, racial class limits, etc... To update Birthright to the new DnD, we might have to accept that certain changes in the setting need to be made, and not just in the mechanics, but in the design philosophy as well.

    I do also agree with you though that DnD isn't really any better or worse than other games, just different. While we can structure rewards for players in our own campaigns any way that works for us and our players, for the official BRCS rewards have to work with, and appeal to, todays DnD players... preferably to the majority of them if we want BR to be used and accepted.

  5. #15
    Hey, I am not saying GURPS is always better. I just think it is better at doing a roleplaying focused game because it explicitly includes rules for any character perk you can dream up. I love leveling as much as the next guy though, it is why I still enjoy playing and running D&D.

    If you seriously want to get away from the leveling up mindset, then tell your players flat out that you will not be using an XP system. Pool your collective brain power and settle on something you can all live with. Rewards of skill points, stat points, feats etc.

    Or alternatively if the 'jump' of each level is what is getting your bee in a bonnet then assign an XP 'cost' to all class abilities. PCs can then spend XP to buy all the features of each level as they can afford/choose. This involves a lot more book keeping though as you need to be aware of what portion of 3rd level wizard you have bought. Of course more complicated leveling rules means someone will break them more easily, but you gotta take the good with the bad.

    EG
    to get to 2nd level requires 1000XP
    a Paladin gets 1d10 HP, +1 BAB, +1Fort, 2 Skill points, Divine Grace and Lay on hands. That is six distinct abilities for achieving that level. You could say the HP were worth 300XP, the +1 BAB and +1 Fort 200 XP each, and the other three 100XP each.
    As a PC accumulates XP they can buy these powers in the order they choose, but they need to buy all of the 2nd level abilities before they can buy 3rd level, or to stop multi-classing rorts buy any ability of another class.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    While we can structure rewards for players in our own campaigns any way that works for us and our players, for the official BRCS rewards have to work with, and appeal to, todays DnD players... preferably to the majority of them if we want BR to be used and accepted.
    It would seem that a majority of players, by a wide margin, prefer low to mid-level play, characters below 10th, 12th, or 15th level. People have talked about how they homebrew some of the slower advancement, and others have asked for more elaboration on slower advancement and alternate sets of rewards.

    This is not just a BR phenomena, I have seen other polling elsewhere which shows the same trend, though significantly less pronounced. See
    this poll which likewise shows a distinct preference for mid-level play. Given the special conditions of the BR setting, its little surprise that preferences trend more toward lower level play even still.

    As such, its quite reasonable to make a serious discussion of how to run a campaign that keeps the action at lower levels longer, and productivly. Further it should not be ruled out that such play might be the standard in BR, since obviously those seeking another style of play, can simply make use of the core rules. One always has the option in a campaign setting to simply default back to the core rules. The purpose of a campaign setting is to help players and DM's with mechanics that support the feel and flavor that makes the campaign different.

    It is quite possible that tastes and opinions on how to focus play on the lower levels, and how to apply and devise rewards other than conventional experience will be so diverse, that no consensus is reached. On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck
    It would seem that a majority of players, by a wide margin, prefer low to mid-level play, characters below 10th, 12th, or 15th level. People have talked about how they homebrew some of the slower advancement, and others have asked for more elaboration on slower advancement and alternate sets of rewards.

    This is not just a BR phenomena, I have seen other polling elsewhere which shows the same trend, though significantly less pronounced. See
    this poll which likewise shows a distinct preference for mid-level play. Given the special conditions of the BR setting, its little surprise that preferences trend more toward lower level play even still.

    As such, its quite reasonable to make a serious discussion of how to run a campaign that keeps the action at lower levels longer, and productivly. Further it should not be ruled out that such play might be the standard in BR, since obviously those seeking another style of play, can simply make use of the core rules. One always has the option in a campaign setting to simply default back to the core rules. The purpose of a campaign setting is to help players and DM's with mechanics that support the feel and flavor that makes the campaign different.

    It is quite possible that tastes and opinions on how to focus play on the lower levels, and how to apply and devise rewards other than conventional experience will be so diverse, that no consensus is reached. On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

    I've never said that leveling can't be slowed, or that midlevels aren't popular. Just that leveling is still going to be a prominent reward in DnD. Also, I don't particularly agree that polls on RPG message boards are the best indicator of RPG consumer preferences. I am one of only two individuals I've gamed with in the past ten years that spent any time reading or posting to RPG message boards, and I've heard other gamers both on and off the boards say the same. I know my groups always consider leveling to be fun and important when we are playing DnD. I can't imagine that the majority of DnD players would consider leveling to be a minor thing, as Green Knight suggested they should.

    My opinion is that the npcs in Birthright were lower to mid level because many 2e DnD characters couldn't gain levels any higher than that, not to mention that PCs could be rulers and opposing these npcs on the battlefield at very early levels. There's nothing wrong with this, but I don't think it automatically indicates that BR is biased towards low level play. The Awnsheighlien are prime examples of where high level play in BR can go.... I know because we did it when I was a player in BR. As I've said before, I intend myself to slow progression a bit when I run BR, I'm just saying that for the BRCS my opinion is any alterations to the xp or progression system would best be presented as options. Otherwise, the whole "we like high level games" segment (and there are people who prefer this) of the potential BR market would be alienated from the git-go.

  8. #18
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    This thread has gotten me thinking.

    I may only give story XP in my game. I've been doing this so far, just as a plot point. The Regents have to travel to the Temple of Rilni in Khourane, and I wasn't going to let them take their Paladin and Priest levels until they completed the quests. Somewhere along the way I decided I would automatically level them once they completed the quest.

    So, maybe that's how I will handle the entire game. No XP for anything except storyline awards.

    It's something that could be considered for the official rules.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

  10. #20
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck
    On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.
    That is true as well.

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