Wealth system for domain level income/expenses

[DanMcSorley]

On 9/30/06, Cuchulainshound <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> The prospect of rolling badly, and not being able to
> afford "much of anything", while a neighbor of
> equal "wealth", rolling well, repeatedly, suddenly and
> unexpectedly has thrice the assetts you do, is not one I
> would want to be subjected to. Nor vice versa- I find it
> awkward to have a huge advantage by pure luck.

Are you referring to a wealth system here, or to the random income
charts? It`s hard to tell from that paragraph.

--
Daniel McSorley

[irdeggman]

Alchemy could be handled in a number of different ways.

First off the GB cost (from the present system) would be converted to a wealth DC check {again number would need to be determined}.

Then the spell could be cast.

The ways the results could be dealt with are at least twofold.

One option is to have it increase the regents's wealth score. {I'm not real found of this one since wealth is supposed to be a reflection of continous income - but it could be done}

The other option is to have the result of the spell give a bonus to the next wealth check roll. {I would lean towards this one since it is more of a reflection of the temporary income increase gained by the spell.}

I am pretty sure there are other ways it could be done.

Remember I did caution that this would not be an easy system to develop since anything that had a GB cost or income associated with it in the present rules would need some kind of wealth check DC (for expenses) or modifier (for income).

It also requires people to radically change the way they think about buying things and generating income. It is, however, an "officially" recognized d20 system from WotC.

I would not, however, recommned using it as a variant system since it would require substantially more than a paragraph or two of text to implement (more like 5-10 pages of charts and text, think that every unit table and domain action table would need to be "modified" in order to work this. It could however be done via something akin to a Birthright version of Unearthed Arcana - something that contains nothing but variants and options but yet is a separate document.

[Birthright-L]

I think he`s commenting on the degree of randomness possible with a
single roll of a d20 as a determining factor the the task of affording
a given assett or action. If so, then I tend to agree. High
Abstraction = Good, High Randomness = Bad.

Also, some people find it just weird to pick up a d20 and say, "Okay
I`ll roll to afford that."



On 10/1/06, Daniel McSorley <mcsorley.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/30/06, Cuchulainshound <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> > The prospect of rolling badly, and not being able to
> > afford "much of anything", while a neighbor of
> > equal "wealth", rolling well, repeatedly, suddenly and
> > unexpectedly has thrice the assetts you do, is not one I
> > would want to be subjected to. Nor vice versa- I find it
> > awkward to have a huge advantage by pure luck.
>
> Are you referring to a wealth system here, or to the random income
> charts? It`s hard to tell from that paragraph.
>
> --
> Daniel McSorley
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
ROLL THE DICE: Dedicated to the exploration of ideas and concepts in
Game Design and Theory.
http://lordrahvin.wordpress.com

[DanMcSorley]

On 10/1/06, Lord Rahvin <lordrahvin@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think he`s commenting on the degree of randomness possible with a
> single roll of a d20 as a determining factor the the task of affording
> a given assett or action. If so, then I tend to agree. High
> Abstraction = Good, High Randomness = Bad.

Ah, I see. Well, like many other d20 checks, the modern wealth check
allows taking 10. So it`s only random if you`re trying to afford
something beyond your reach

IE, if your wealth is +2 and you`re trying to buy something which is
DC 8, take 10, you get a 12, and automatically buy it. If you`re
trying to buy something which is DC 13, you will need to roll or else
take 20 (which takes longer, and represents shopping around to get the
best deal, or something similar).

> Also, some people find it just weird to pick up a d20 and say,
> "Okay I`ll roll to afford that."

People had the same complaint when d20 modern came out. It was
because they didn`t understand the system. Your wealth bonus doesn`t
represent cash on hand or anything like that. It represents your
general level of affluence and credit, as for a complex modern
monetary system. It`s not random whether an average middle-class
person can afford to buy lunch. That kind of day-to-day expense is
well under his wealth bonus, and never needs to be tracked at all.

What is semi-randomized (only semi, because of taking 10 and 20) in
the wealth system is whether you can afford or get financing for
expensive things, like a car, house, or highly expensive piece of
equipment. If you`re trying to do it quickly, you roll, and may or
may not get it immediately. Take your time and take 10, and if it`s
something that`s closely within your means, you get it. Take your
time, shop around, and take 20, and if you could in any way afford it
at all, you get it. Takes the randomness right out.

And after you buy something which has a higher DC than your wealth
bonus, your wealth goes down, because more of your wealth is tied up
in affording this new stuff (a house payment or car payment, for
example).

Nobles and kings were among the first people in history to operate
with this kind of complex financing system- the king rarely had to
immediately, directly pay for something, he just promised to pay for
it, and that promise was backed by the wealth of his kingdom. In that
respect, a wealth system is very appropriate for the birthright domain
system.

In another respect, that it doesn`t allow bean-counting resource
management which many people enjoy as part of the domain mini-game, a
wealth system isn`t appropriate for birthright at all.

I personally don`t enjoy the bean-counting part of the game, and have
used a wealth system in the past. Other people like it, and I would
imagine they are more common than people like me. Being able to point
at a number and say "my kingdom is THIS rich" is fun.
--
Daniel McSorley

[Birthright-L]

"People had the same complaint when d20 modern came out. It was
because they didn`t understand the system. Your wealth bonus doesn`t
represent cash on hand or anything like that. It represents your
general level of affluence and credit, as for a complex modern
monetary system. It`s not random whether an average middle-class
person can afford to buy lunch. That kind of day-to-day expense is
well under his wealth bonus, and never needs to be tracked at all."
----

I`m not relying on the rest of your post, because you`ve helped to
clarify your position and I don`t disagree with any particular point.
You have some very good points in there.

However, the above paragraph needs a comment: I hate it when someone
assumes that the only reason I don`t like a mechanic, is because I
don`t understand it. I understand it just fine. I`m in favor of a
system of abstraction for wealth at the domain level -- I said as much
already. But I don`t like the effect of the d20modern wealth system
does IN PLAY as a dialogue and resolution between players. I said
this; please don`t turn around my argument into a completely different
argument. Just because I disagree with the mechanic, doesn`t make me
ignorant of the way it works or why.

[kgauck]

Also, some people find it just weird to pick up a d20 and say, "Okay
I`ll roll to afford that."

Is this really so different from the descriptions we get for using the Diplomacy skill during negotiations for a 10% price break or addition of a similar extra, like fabricating your arms on a shield? We may frequently forgo this kind of haggeling since money is not so scarce for most characters and its just not worth the time invested (especially since most DM's will apply some competataive Will role). But is it actually wierd to consult a d20 during a purchase?

As Dan has said, most purchases have no recourse to dice because our realm is assumed to afford them. I can certainly see rolling a Diplomacy check to get a price break on major purchases, so is it really so wierd?

[irdeggman]

It should also be noted that you don't need to roll a wealth check unless the purchase DC is less than 1 + your current wealth bonus. This is not an attack roll nor a saving throw, so a natural 1 is not an automatic failure nor is a natural 20 an automatic success.

You only need to roll (for which you can take 10 or 20 as has been pointed out) when attempting to purchase something that is beyond your means (i.e., greater than 1 + your current wealth bonus). So what you would do is find ways to increase your current wealth bonus (even if only temporary) so that the "check" is automatic.

[DanMcSorley]

On 10/2/06, Lord Rahvin <lordrahvin@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, the above paragraph needs a comment: I hate it when someone
> assumes that the only reason I don`t like a mechanic, is because I
> don`t understand it. I understand it just fine. I`m in favor of a
> system of abstraction for wealth at the domain level -- I said as much
> already. But I don`t like the effect of the d20modern wealth system
> does IN PLAY as a dialogue and resolution between players. I said
> this; please don`t turn around my argument into a completely different
> argument. Just because I disagree with the mechanic, doesn`t make me
> ignorant of the way it works or why.

I was basing that statement more on my experience with d20 modern
players (who bitch about the wealth system constantly; on enworld at
any given time there are a couple of "I want to replace the wealth
system" threads running) than on your statement. I just kinda used
your post as a launching-off point. I didn`t mean to malign you, but
it certainly came across that way, and I`m sorry.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Sigmund]

On 10/1/06, Sigmund <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> How would this affect the cost of casting realm spells?
> Also, how would Alchemy be handled?

I imagine they would have a DC necessary to cast them, same as any
other expense.

Alchemy would be handled like any other income. Did you read the d20
modern rules for a wealth score?

--
Daniel McSorley

No, don't have d20 Modern ATM. True20 uses a wealth system though, but I imagine it's different somewhat. I don't really like the wealth system, so I won't be using it no matter what. My players like counting coins and so do I.

[Sigmund]

It could however be done via something akin to a Birthright version of Unearthed Arcana - something that contains nothing but variants and options but yet is a separate document.

I really like this idea.

I have always thought that the reason d20 Modern (and True20 for that matter) uses a wealth system is because the game can be used for many different genres/time periods and so presenting a more detailed economic system to try and fit all of them would be completely unrealistic. Since BR doesn't suffer that condition, I'm curious as to why ya'all feel it needs a different economic system. I don't remember having many difficulties with the system is it was originally presented, and I don't understand why it wouldn't translate almost directly over to 3.5. What am I missing?