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Thread: Low level syndrome in BR
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09-14-2006, 09:40 PM #21
Increasing Levels of NPC's
I happily increased NPC's levels during the course of my BR campaigns. I generally tried to keep the xp gap about the same, not the number of levels. I could always figure what level an NPC should be by taking the printed data, or my conversion, assuming the minimum xp to possess the level, and adding what the players had (more or less). Siobhan Riedhie starts the game out at her printed as a 3rd level priest, though my conversion makes her a 2 noble/ 2 cleric. See her here. So I assume she has a 6 or 7000xp lead on the PC's. By the time they get to 3rd level, I bump her up to 5th level.
This does not lead to everyone becomming epic level however, because while the PC's have a certain amount of script protection (they can really ony die as a consequence of their actions), I can kill off NPC's to advance story lines, to create a sense of realism (NPC's can die in accidents, by disease, old age, or devious plots), or because I want to bring their heirs into the fore.
In my last campaign, the PC's started out as the sons of existing nobles. They could choose to be the eldest son, in line for the title, or they could be second sons, suitable for offices, but not in line for titles. I started out with a 1st or 2nd level version of most of the key figures in the campaign to interact with the PC's. They too had sons just like the PC's. Eventually, characters like Olfjor Ylvarrik died and one of his sons took his place.
So the NPC enviroment was managed, so that generally characters tended to increase in xp like the PC's. Often they advanced in political classes, like Thuriene Donalls, who gained levels in Dynasties and Demagogues Religious Leader class. Rivals tended to match power more closely with the PC's. A few characters, such as key henchmen, specialized more than the PC's did. Characters who gained levels in political classes, whether Noble (which is described on my site as Aristocrat), or one of the classes from Dynasties and Demagogues or Cityworks became more powerful in political spheres. They aquired political skills, often got promoted in their organziations, and had command over more resources. They became more politically formidable where NPC's who got combat oriented classes became more physically formidable.
Keeping track of xp gaps, rather than level gaps, combined with killing off NPC's whose time has past keeps the average level pretty reasonable.
Its also the case, and I think this makes perfect sense in BR, that after a time, players become just as concerned about the power of their organizations as they do their characters, and are eccepting of the fact that their characters grow slowly, because most of their efforts benefit their realms. Sure its been a while since PC Alan got a level, but he settled a new town, and that's as good as another hit die. He completed a fortification, despite attacks by hostile forces, that's as good as a BAB bonus. Because I didn't match CR to the players constantly, or rather tended to increase the challenge of an encounter with more low power opponants, two things happened. One is that the players started to look for groups of followers and subjects to throw at the enemy's masses. Second, they personally grew in power more slowly over time, because adding another hundred goblins to an invasion doesn't do much for the player's personal danger. What it really does is increase the danger to their realms. A village of 75 men, women, and children are helpless before 100 goblins with a level of rogue (on average). Even if 30 Commoner 4/Warrior 2 's don't drop like flies, their loss is a blow to any realm, and the loss of their village is a blow as well.
One clever strategy players developed (aside from shifting concern from PC power to realm power) was to cultivate lower level cohorts, lieutenants, and allies. Bringing little friends along often did far more to bring that 2nd level knight up to 3rd, without making a dent for the 10th level champion who brought him. Eventually, players had a stable of mid-level friends, allies, relatives, and vassals to send on errends, undertake missions, and otherwise use to advance their cause.
Again the effect here is to make it seem like the real action is in the middle levels for individual champions, and that high level characters run realms.
Players who missed the action were encouraged to cultivate new PC's, even their own heirs. More than a few PC's were retired to taking realm turns while their sons followed in their footsteps. And so we come full circle.
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09-15-2006, 12:10 AM #22
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I think that kgauck has some great points.
In campaign's that I have run over the years I haven't had any troubles with the Birthright setting. I keep the magic low by not handing out many magic items but give my players other rewards such as favours from people in power.
I haven't had players reach epic level yet but I believe if they did I would have plenty of challanges for them. It is all in how you DM the game. If I had a high level fighter wade into battle against a couple of hundred soldiers I can gaurantee that he would be overwelmed by the numbers.
If your players have powerfull characters then I would imagin that they would start to effect the world around them and perhaps be the next Emperor/Gorgon. Even though the gorgon is powerfull he is still kept in check.
I think it all comes down to the creativity of the DM and the use of common sense and a dash of reality.
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09-15-2006, 12:20 AM #23
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Originally Posted by maskmaker
Forget wizards - what about fighters? Using Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack, a high level fighter can murder armies on his own.
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09-15-2006, 04:53 AM #24
Tactics is a game of rock-paper-scissors. If you have great cleave and wirlwind attack, then his enemy will send archers to defeat him. At Hastings, the Housecarls of Harold were experts in the use of the heavy bearded axe, employed in reverse so they would strike away from the normal shield hand, forcing opponants into an awkward stance, their weapon had greater reach than most other common weapons, and they stood uphill of the Normans. William had archers, Harold didn't. Harold himself, who was quite a warrior in his own right, is thought to have taken an arrow in the eye, which is certainly a critical hit.
I'm a big fan of a fighter with a big weapon (I prefer a greatsword to a greataxe, but ymmv), great cleave, and combat reflexes, just wading right into the enemy. You can certainly do damage way out of proportion to your performance in other combats. But it doesn't defeat armies. Eventually you just get grappled, knocked down, and pinned. Then they can just hit you with sticks until you're dead. There are accounts of successful knights ending up this way because they got seperated from their friends.
The model of one character defeating armies is just not appropriate to a game based on controlling holdings, mustering armies, and governing realms. Its all very FR, where super-characters determine the fate of nations. But blooded characters are not jedi. The topic this thread deals with, using low level characters, is one way of preventing the problem of epic characters interacting with spear-carriers.
Another is not to have armies simply 1st level warriors. Armies can, and should, be composed of characters of various levels lead by commanders of even higher level. Captains of a company should be stand-outs, I think 5th level is certainly appropriate. Elite units, higher. Perhaps if high level characters are the norm, adding several levels of commoner to soldiers makes sense.
All of the rules for running realms only makes sense if its worth the effort, bookkeeping, and otherwise useful. That's what makes BR special. As such it requires that super-characters not be the arbiters of nations. Realms should be the expression of powerful characters, not their own individual persons.
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09-15-2006, 06:29 AM #25
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My original reply contained an outline of how a 15th level fighter could perform as I suggested (and no, I didn't ignore grappling or archery). But I deleted it before posting because I'm pretty sure it would either:
- Bore everyone
- Get me accused of being a munchkin
- Attract a series of "no DM would let that happen" responses
But if anyone is interested, PM me.
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with the contention that high level characters nuking armies is not really appropriate to the BR setting. I merely point out that a standard D&D3e fighter is capable of this - and if a fighter can do it, you can bet that a wizard can.
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09-15-2006, 10:23 AM #26Originally Posted by gazza666
1 - Most players are part of a group. Make sure they have group-dynamics in mind when they create their characters.
2 - If step one doesn´t work, show them that allies are what will get them through the day. BR is all about interacting with pepole - other Regents, specialists, advisors, diplomats, local nobility, etc. - You need to trust someone...-Harald
Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
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09-15-2006, 10:50 AM #27Originally Posted by Green Knight
I´ve used the WP/VP system with good results. As for converting monsters, etc., I use Wizard´s Star Wars supplement Ultimate Alien Anthology. It´s a bit of a process at first, but (at least in my campaigns) I don´t have a myriad of monsters swarming the lands.
And it really gets the players to think strategic in a fight. A horde of goblins are quite likely to bring down a 10th level Fighter if he were to face them alone. If nothing else, they could simply swarm him, drag him of his horse, and (as you deal Wound damage to a prone target) crush his face with rocks. Hardly a glorious way to go down, but it encourages planning, group-play and takes the destructive edge off the 10th level party.Last edited by The Swordgaunt; 09-15-2006 at 10:59 AM.
-Harald
Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
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09-15-2006, 11:08 AM #28
Addendum:
The WP/VP-model opens for non-hero specialists. If you hire a master architect to construct your Great Wall, he doesn´t have to be a 10th level Munchkin. The Expert-, Diplomat-, and Thug classes from Star Wars offer a way to introduce characters with, say, a skill mod of 20 in Knowledge (Architecture) without upsetting the power balance of the entire region.-Harald
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09-15-2006, 12:22 PM #29
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As far as this problem goes. I need to give kudos to the way our GM handles things.
We have our campaign set in a country that's not the Birthright staple, he created it himself and has put a lot of time in the map, the regions and and the NPCs there too.
We're running with the Wound/Vitality system and low magic. In fact, the entire party was allowed only one main spellcasting class.
As far as the NPCs go, I'm not sure if he gave them a direct sheet. We have our Emperor for instance. The GM put him down as 'Bad Ass', and he managed it that well that we're not even dreaming of wanting to challenge him, ever... yet.
We've been given plenty of good challenges, though most of the trouble we inflicted on ourselves by being too cocky. (We're blood scions, after all.) We're even debating a shared banner with the text : "macula solely ranch (eo)" (It) will have to work.
Currently, we've been king for a bit, ruled our own bit of land as landed regent and with the downtime skips inbetween we've been ruling for about 20-25 years now, on average. We have been grooming successors so we can take our PCs and vamoose for prestige projects and hobbies. After all, my little Warlock wants to be a (demi)God.
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09-15-2006, 04:19 PM #30
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For the high level PC taking on units bit: Why not just make a high level PC the same stats as a high level monster. Certainly a high level PC can equal a unique monster in damage output, as has been shown here. Either the PC can lead a unit of smaller leveled being as a hero and enhance it greatly (and at high levels, gaurntee survival), or it can go alone, still a potent unit, but not with a chance of death (since it'd probably be targeted by multiple units, and, if destroyed, killed). Does that seem a viable idea?
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