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  1. #11
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    No reason to appologize.

    The heart of the DnD system IS (arguably) the combat system. And the combat system is tied closely to the CR system and the treasure-reward system.

    The end result being that PCs are supposed to face opponents of reasonaby similar power levels. We're talking +/- 2 CRs or so most of the time. Anything beyond +/- 4 CRs and the DMG warns that this is either a PC killer or a walkover.

    Furthermore, the system of CRs include a mechanism of comparing the CR of groups of monsters as well, but admits that it breaks down for very large groups of weak monsters facing individually much more powerful opponents.

    So, by design, the system admitts to being ill suited for asymetric challenges...a party of 15-20th lvl characters cannot be reasonably challenged by any group of weak monsters.

    So, if common soldiers have a level or two of warrior, and the rest of the world's common challenges are scaled accordinly the result is pretty obvious - a low-level campaign is REQUIRED.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  2. #12
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    Since the CR system of BR is already kinda off, and the setting's npcs were published as lower level to start, has anyone considered including, as either official or optional, a combat system like Grim 'N Gritty for the BR setting. It would truely level the battle field combat prowess-wise as even low level characters have a reasonable chance of defeating high level opponents. In case anyone is not familiar with it, it does have it's downsides. In the campaign I'm playing in right now we are using it and I can tell ya it really is challenging...creatures larger than medium size especially are very difficult to defeat. It uses a damage track (so no character or creature of any level has more or less than 25 HPs), active defense rolls in place of static ACs as the to-hit target numbers (defense is your dodge ability using dex and such), and "soak", which is basically damage reduction calculated using con, armor, and such. There are different versions of the GnG system, I know True20 uses what seems to be a system loosely derived from it.

  3. #13
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    On 9/13/06, Sigmund <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    > Since the CR system of BR is already kinda off, and the setting`s npcs were published as
    > lower level to start, has anyone considered including, as either official or optional, a
    > combat system like Grim `N Gritty for the BR setting.

    No. Birthright is a D&D setting. The design goal is to hew as close
    to that as possible, to make the setting usable for as many people as
    possible. People that like G&G or Castles and Crusades or Grim Tales
    or whatever are already sufficiently equipped to do with the setting
    what they will.

    --
    Daniel McSorley

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    gritty Combat

    re gritty combat, I find that using the alternate d20 system of wound and vitality produces a pretty good system where low level characters can get a critical and put any normal combatant into a state where they are dead, out for the count, or looking for the exit.

    Take the example of the mighty PC against a unit of 1st or 2nd level warriors. Putting aside the question of whether the mighty PC is designed to be a giant killer (one great opponant) or a goblin killer (many small opponants) and select the latter, it still only takes a single critical hit from a goblin's spear to shift a PC from offense to defense.

    I've seen plenty of characters go wading into an onslaught of Blood Skull goblins, cleaving their way to immortal glory, when a lucky shot from some unknown goblin whose name will never be sung, sends the PC falling back to the side of his allies where he can fight defensively and establish flanking bonuses and get the benefit from clerical aid if things get really dangerous.

    They know full well that goblin captains can be rogues and often make for wounded human captains intending to flank, sneak attack them, and then put the character in line for a fatal blow.

    The ogre who wacks you with a great club and gets a critical is an obvious possibility for a killing blow, but even three wounds from lucky goblins are generally fatal.

  5. #15
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    I think I'll present my "solution" to the problem:

    1. If you want to stick with normal DnD rules + BRCS rules, I think that having most low-level characters should be the norm. Anything above 10th level is a MAJOR power.

    2. If you're willing to change more rules, you could import some rules from UA (such as wound/vitality/DR from armor etc.) or use alternate systems (such a d20 G&G or the aforementioned A Game of Thrones). Requires a bit more work though.

    The END result is pretty much the same - PCs (and NPCs) are NOT supposed to be all-powerful demi-gods that can walk over an army or small kingdom without breaking a sweat...
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  6. #16
    Hmm... maybe part of the problem is that we're kinda assuming that all the other regents/characters in BR are not levelling up and adventuring as much as the PCs? Why not, every so often, bump of the level of a wizard somewhere, so that when the PCs reach high level, their peers also have been progressing. Then there's no major change to the rules, but the setting is made slightly more realistic.

    Only drawback to that, is that it might remove the limited magic feel. But then... magic should still be limited, it just means that Blah the Wizard King of Blahland doesn't just stay the same weak spellcaster. He advances in his arcane lore just the same as PCs.

    That's one thought?

  7. #17
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    It is a solution, but one that quickly bings about an inflation of power levels. One this process is begun, the average level of NPCs throughout the setting WILL increase. Then we have a situation similar to, say FR, where important NPCs are all Epic level or so.

    If we assume that only "exceptional" individuals, like PCs and major antagonist/protagonist NPCs are part of this inflation, it causes the problem described earlier - neither the PCs nor the NPCs really need their domain. They can rule the battlefield and raze small kingdoms on their own.

    A related effect, but the most visual one, it that high-level magic-users have access to power that simply put are completely out of synch with the low-level feel of BR magic (BR is, IMO, not necessarilylow on the AMOUNT of magic, but the POWER of character level magic is not very high).
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maskmaker
    Hmm... maybe part of the problem is that we're kinda assuming that all the other regents/characters in BR are not levelling up and adventuring as much as the PCs? Why not, every so often, bump of the level of a wizard somewhere, so that when the PCs reach high level, their peers also have been progressing. Then there's no major change to the rules, but the setting is made slightly more realistic.
    That's ticket.

    Things shouldn't be "static".

    I have always warned my players that what is written on the NPCs in the books is not necessarily what they will be like when you encounter them.

    I had players who at character creation were plotting to kill the Gorgon and thought that their PC should be able to do that before too long.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    I had players who at character creation were plotting to kill the Gorgon and thought that their PC should be able to do that before too long.
    Well, while I agree with the general sentiment of NPCs getting more powerful (I'll come back to that in a moment - hold that thought), I think the way that the Gorgon is portrayed, your players' expectation was not too unreasonable. It's "Elminster syndrome" again - if it's taken him that long to get to his current level of power, then if your players are advancing reasonably quickly (a level or so per year, say) they quite possibly should catch the big G up. If the big G suddenly starts ramping up his level as well, there is a reasonable question of why the sudden rush, after so many decades stagnation.

    Now, getting back to the issue of NPCs getting more powerful - the only reason you'd even need to consider doing this is if you were using the setting pretty much as written. I know some people do that for Birthright, but I'm wondering if we're the only group that doesn't. When we play in the Forgotten Realms (which is only when the designated DM is feeling lazy, because it's not really a particularly interesting setting), we don't expect to encounter Driz'zt or Elminster. When we play Greyhawk, we don't expect to meet Iuz or Mordenkainen (well, actually, we've never played Greyhawk, but you get the point). There is no requirement to use all the creator's NPCs as your own; you can use most of the history and backstory of Birthright without using any of the rulers in the boxed set. (Indeed, since those haven't been "officially" ported to 3.5 yet - correct me if I'm wrong - you're pretty much going to have to make them up anyway, so why not take it one step further and come up with someone new?)

    If you don't even use the published NPCs, then the players don't have any expectation of what the levels of their neighbouring rulers "should" be, so you can fudge to your heart's content (let's face it, it's not really important until it actually impacts the PCs in some way).

    But to each his own; I do understand that for some people the NPCs are as much (or more) a part of the setting than bloodlines and awnshies are. Even then, though, I would imagine it's more the personality and flavour that is important rather than how many levels of fighter and what feats they have.

  10. #20
    Hmm... I'm going to comment on this whole "razing kingdoms" and "destroying armies" lark. Whilst I can't really comment on the actual numbers of it, I understand yes, it is possible. But then, surely the DM can institute some storylines to discourage a PC from using "meteor meteor meteor" to blast apart everything in front of them.

    Two examples I can think of:

    1) The PC, by destroying so many people with such magic, has a direct, adverse affect on the mebhaigl. The land is becoming ill, and if the PC is not careful, the magical fabric of his domain may soon come undone.

    2) The population of the nation live in fear of the PCs magic. Constant blasts of fire in the middle of battle, even when used for the kingdom are not conducive to a peaceful enjoyment of the rule.

    I'm going to reach beyond D&D for the moment, to the "Wheel of Time" series. Now, Elayne, when she is besieged in Caemlyn, COULD technically have blasted most of the army apart with her magical powers. But she DIDN'T because if she won the country on her own with just her magic, then the people would turn against her.

    What am I saying? Well, if people are terrified of mages growing far too powerful, just subtly remind the wizard-PCs that if they do get too trigger-happy with their spells, there are some more powerful wizards who will try to end the abuse of the magic. I mean, if your level 15 wizard has defeated invasion after invasion after invasion with meteor strike and fireballs and summoning of demons... there must be some IC repercussions. High Mage Aelies might name the PC an enemy for irresponsible spellcasting; an evil shade might seek the power of the PC for himself.

    Now, wizard players might think, "But come on, I've got these spells, why can't I use them?" My thought has always been that Birthright wizards save such spells for the very rarest of occasion. Mechanics wise, yes, they can cast spells, but RPwise, they should be wary of summoning such magic. Maybe once, in order to swing the battle in the favour of the wizard, a single fireball can be flung against a knight unit about to flank the army... or whatever.

    Does any of that make sense? I may have repeated myself a bit in this post, so sorry. I'm just trying to say that there are ways to explain to a PC why they can't use magic to solve all their problems.

    Just another thought.

    Edit: to answer another question, as to why a wizard would bother ruling a domain? / why would a high-level PC bother ruling a domain? Duty, loyalty... and it does give them extra prestige... and, with the arguments set out in my post, because they can't use magic for everything. Even uber-powerful Elminster doesn't blast everything apart just because he can... and that's in uber-powerful omg-powerful-NPC-round-every-corner Forgotten Realms.
    Last edited by maskmaker; 09-14-2006 at 01:20 PM.

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