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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmund
    In typing my last post I have discovered another issue with the scion class. It's really nothing more than another base class that has only 2 levels. This means a 2nd level character can have access to what amounts to class features that allow the character to Mass Charm Monster and Confuse (Charm Aura), 1d6-1 CON damage at a touch (major level of Death Touch), Hypnotic Pattern and Fear (Divine Aura), etc. On top of these they get bonus HPs and weapon and armor use. How does this prevent these powers from unbalancing a low level campaign? The effect I see it having is that all great blooded characters would still get unbalancing powers pretty much front-loaded.
    Since they seem to cause someone to alternate betwen not powerful enough (as in they cast a spellcaster too much) and too powerful (as in they allow high level spells at low levels) it would appear to me that they are indeed about right power-wise.

    They may not seem right or sit well with everyone, but power-wise they are porbably about right.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    Since they seem to cause someone to alternate betwen not powerful enough (as in they cast a spellcaster too much) and too powerful (as in they allow high level spells at low levels) it would appear to me that they are indeed about right power-wise.

    They may not seem right or sit well with everyone, but power-wise they are porbably about right.
    Actually, short of denying great blood abilities completely or at least until higher levels are reached, heavily modifying either the abilities themselves or the entire way bloodline works, or giving everyone great bloodlines (none of which are realistic or desirable solutions for everyone), I'd submit that great blood abilities have never and are not now about right power-wise. I most definitely don't envy ya'all in the choices you had to make in developing the raw for BR 3.5

    I do understand your reasoning, and it seems to be a mostly fair trade-off in the purely numerical sense (although I'm still not convinced it is in actuality). It just doesn't make any sense to me in the suspension of disbelief area. Using feats and delaying acquisition of major and great blood powers until higher levels I can explain away, even if it is a minor change from the original setting material. Requiring levels seems, to me and my players (I talked to them about it last night), to imply the abilities require training and/or practice to acquire. This seems to be a larger change, for what seems to me no appreciable gain in balance issues. Whether the numbers seem to work out or not, using the scion class allows a 2nd level character to gain access to all those powerful abilities you listed, whether that player aspires to be a wizard or a fighter later on. So while the 2nd level fighter is doing his/her fighter thing, and the 2nd level wizard is Sleeping and/or Magic Missile-ing away, the 2nd level scion is fighting fairly well, while also potentially able to mass charm, or turn into a shadow. Plus, on top of the great ability(s), the scion will also likely have major and minor powers to bring to bear too. How is this balanced? Am I missing something?

    I concede...a 3rd level PC with 2 levels of scion and 1 of wizard will not always result in a weak character, but it will result in a weak wizard that will always be a weaker wizard than a comparable one with a minor bloodline. This seems to result in the minor bloodline wizard actually beginning to become more powerful overall than the great bloodline one as their levels advance, experience being equal. This also doesn't sound right to me.

    I also concede that I am coming at this issue exclusively from the adventuring level of BR. I have done no research or thinking into how the raw balances or works out at the regency/domain-play level. To be fair, ya'all warned me in the raw that the scion levels were designed with at least 50% domain-play in mind and that it would work less well for my style of almost purely adventuring play. I just want ya'all to know I understand that I might not being giving the scion class system the full credit it deserves. I'm just expressing my concerns, as they come to me. That I am not the only one who shares some of these opinions/concerns helps me at least to believe that I'm not arbitrarily nit-picking.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    And the 3rd level wizardf with 2 scion class levels gets roughly 6-9 levels worth of wizard hit dice in bonus hit points. He also trades up in HD size for those 2 levels. The wizard gives up - around 2 spell per day by giving up those levels. In exchange he can gain some pretty significant blood abilites. For example the the ones that are equivalent of much hihger level spells than 2nd level ones are:

    Charm Aura (equal to charm monster, mass) 3x/day

    Divine Aura (hypnotic pattern) 1/day

    Divine Wrath (as mentioned)

    Elemental Control (summoon monster V) 1/day and an extra spell (dependant on derivation)

    Enhanced Sense (derivation dependant - detect evil at will, shadow sense, vision can penetrate normal and magical darkness up to 60 ft, scrying, greater 1/day)

    Healing (cure serious wounds or neutralize poison 1/day)

    Light of Reason (sunlight once per day)

    Major Resistance (derivation specific - but can get SR 16 ampoung choices)

    Protection from Evil (continuous Magic Circle against Evil)

    Resistance (derivation specific but can get permanent freedom of movement when in water and water breathing)

    Shadow Form (can turn into a shadow 1/day for 1 min/level)

    Touch of Decay (can rust metal and other substances 1/day)

    Travel (derivation specific) - but no chance of getting messed up unlike transportation spells)

    Whither Touch (1d12 damage plus save each day to avoid 1d4 damage - 1/week)

    There are some serious spell like abilities there.

    The fighter trades down in hit die size. The bonus hit points he recieves is roughly only half as many levels worth in relative class hit dice.
    You neglect to mention the wizard also is held back two levels in gaining new spell level power, and in the case of Sorcerers, almost denies them 9th level casting.

    Thematically and mechanically speaking, scion levels should give spellcasting levels. After all, you NEED to be blooded (if not elven) to even CAST true magic. As such, there's a strong tie between such magic and blood, and no reason thematically to not allow scion classes to have the "increases existing spellcasting level +1" modifier.
    Last edited by Mikal; 09-13-2006 at 08:19 PM.

  4. #14
    If you give full spellcasting progression, then the balance swings too far the other way. Fighters and rogues must give up a little bit to take scion levels (a feat, some skill points, whatever); a sorcerer gives up absolutely nothing (and a wizard gives up little).

    Fundamentally, if there is one type of D&D character that doesn't really need great bloodline powers to seem impressive, it is spellcasters. That's why I don't really care that much that the scion levels are unattractive to spellcasters in the RAW - virtually anything is unattractive compared to higher level spells.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    If you give full spellcasting progression, then the balance swings too far the other way. Fighters and rogues must give up a little bit to take scion levels (a feat, some skill points, whatever); a sorcerer gives up absolutely nothing (and a wizard gives up little).
    True, but to be honest the scion class itself does little as a class, outside of the blood boost. If anything, mechanically speaking, it's a mix power wise between a decent PrC and a crappy PrC. Allowing spellcasters to retain their full power with the class bumps it up a tad. Perhaps to balance it against spellcasters it could be "+1 to existing spellcasting level or Bonus Feat", as some PrCs currently have.

    That's why I don't really care that much that the scion levels are unattractive to spellcasters in the RAW - virtually anything is unattractive compared to higher level spells.
    As I said earlier, the mechanics were only part of my reasoning. The other was thematics: True magic can only be achieved via two ways: being blooded, or being an elf. It makes little thematic sense that a class that enhances your blood doesn't also enhance your magic.

  6. #16
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    not to be rude, but what are you smoking Mikal?

    Perhaps you are confused as to what you actually are supposed to get for the Scion class, I know I was at first, and it took help from this community for me to see the light.

    Reposted from the last thread.
    * Skills that are forever considered class skills. One or two that are of your own choice.
    * HP, not just from the class, but bonus HP = to the lower of 1/2 Bloodscore OR RP collected per season, adjusted seasonally.
    * Depending on class and derivation, Saving throws and BAB you would not normaly get.
    * Depending on class and derivation, access to weapons and armor you would normally have to spend a feat to get.
    * Higher levels of Blood Abilities depending on Blood Strength and Score.
    * An Heirloom(useful non-charged magic item) or 2500G.
    * All the Mundane items you want and a mount to carry them.
    * Boost to Bloodscore likely giving more powers.
    Now, while wizards are rarely in melee, they do tend to need more HP at lower levels because they run out of spells rather quickly, so must rely on lower damage melee or ranged weapons. The BAB and Extra HP are a larger bonus for wzards than any other class as they help them to survive those crucial lower levels when their spell power isn't great. The BAB also helps them be a little more effective when out of spells and using bow or sling. The scion classes also, in general, gives them better armor and weapon selection than they would normaly be allowed, which can be important in a low magic world.

    /steps off of soap box

    OK, if none of that is new to you, or helpful, sorry for wasting the ink.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

  7. #17
    Actually I can see Mikal's point.

    I acknowledge everything in that list, ploesch - but it's not enough to make me want to take scion levels as a wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric. If you removed all of that list except blood ability access, lowered the BAB progression to +1/2, made it d4 hp (with no bonus), and only good Will saves, but you added full spellcasting progression - then I'd take it as a wizard or sorcerer, sure.

    I don't really care that it's not attractive to spellcasters, but I do disagree with the assertion that there is sufficient compensation for the loss of spellcasting. (At least not from a powergaming perspective, and if we're talking about mechanics then that seems a fair perspective to take).

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmund
    Actually, short of denying great blood abilities completely or at least until higher levels are reached, heavily modifying either the abilities themselves or the entire way bloodline works, or giving everyone great bloodlines (none of which are realistic or desirable solutions for everyone), I'd submit that great blood abilities have never and are not now about right power-wise. I most definitely don't envy ya'all in the choices you had to make in developing the raw for BR 3.5

    I do understand your reasoning, and it seems to be a mostly fair trade-off in the purely numerical sense (although I'm still not convinced it is in actuality). It just doesn't make any sense to me in the suspension of disbelief area. Using feats and delaying acquisition of major and great blood powers until higher levels I can explain away, even if it is a minor change from the original setting material. Requiring levels seems, to me and my players (I talked to them about it last night), to imply the abilities require training and/or practice to acquire. This seems to be a larger change, for what seems to me no appreciable gain in balance issues. Whether the numbers seem to work out or not, using the scion class allows a 2nd level character to gain access to all those powerful abilities you listed, whether that player aspires to be a wizard or a fighter later on. So while the 2nd level fighter is doing his/her fighter thing, and the 2nd level wizard is Sleeping and/or Magic Missile-ing away, the 2nd level scion is fighting fairly well, while also potentially able to mass charm, or turn into a shadow. Plus, on top of the great ability(s), the scion will also likely have major and minor powers to bring to bear too. How is this balanced? Am I missing something?
    Well requiring 3 feats in order to get great blood abilities requires a PC to be at least 3rd level (and then only if human, non-humans would required to be 6th level). So this essentially works the same as the "acquiring experience and training" issues.

    I would again point out that the concept that leveling implies (or requires) training is not part of the core WotC philosophy. In fact it goes against many of the philosophies of published material.

    Most published adventures assume that the PCs do not require time to gain benefits of leveling up. Age of Worms is a prime example. {I really think that would make an interesting one to convert to BR}.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I now that I have pointed out the Frequently asked questions pinned thread before as a source of past discussions on this subject but here are some more pertinent threads (and informatin):


    http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=1312&highlight=Powers%3A

    Started in 2003

    Poll results (from 2003):

    http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=1343&highlight=Powers%3A

    Summary:

    Final Chapter 2 poll results are (I've closed them, as I said I would):

    Should the blood ability score be treated as a 7th ability type score?

    Yes, I like the concept and treatment. 58% (18)
    No, I object! 42% (13)

    Should scion templates be used to represent the strength of bloodline derivation?

    Yes, I agree 56% (19)
    No, I object! 44% (15)

    Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?

    Yes, I agree 65% (24)
    No, I object! 35% (13)

    How I read the poll results (the line I drew for a clear majority was to be close to twice as many in favor as opposed, roughly 66% of the vote in the polls given):

    A majority likes the 7th ability score use to treat the blood ability score. This is only a simple majority and not a clear majority so the proposal needs to be revamped, an alternate needs to be developed or 2 separate systems need to be presented, one as a variant.

    To proceed along the path of developing another viable system the following are points that need to be addressed by any system developed:

    (1) It has to be simple. At least no more complicated than the 3rd edition standard systems used, e.g., skills and feats, class advancement, spell casting, etc.

    (2) The system has to be compatible with both a random based system and a planned development system (a point buy system is an example of a planned development system).

    (3) The system has to mesh with 3rd edition mechanics.

    (4) This one is mine and not necessarily a set in stone precept from a rule standpoint, it just makes things easier game mechanics-wise. The system should lend itself to adaptation to increasing the DCs of blood abilities that require them (similar to spell DCs).


    A majority likes the scion as a template concept to represent the strength of a bloodline, again only a simple majority. The same actions as needed for the blood score above need to be taken.


    A clear majority, almost 2 to 1 for like the use of ECLs for different bloodline strengths.


    This is something to maintain in our minds as we pursue the above two tasks. This clearly can’t be totally addressed until the previous two issues are addressed.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
    To be pedantic, I think you mean "LA" rather than "ECL" there.

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