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Thread: Portraying Bloodline
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09-13-2006, 04:55 PM #11
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Originally Posted by Sigmund
They may not seem right or sit well with everyone, but power-wise they are porbably about right.Duane Eggert
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09-13-2006, 06:07 PM #12Originally Posted by irdeggman
I do understand your reasoning, and it seems to be a mostly fair trade-off in the purely numerical sense (although I'm still not convinced it is in actuality). It just doesn't make any sense to me in the suspension of disbelief area. Using feats and delaying acquisition of major and great blood powers until higher levels I can explain away, even if it is a minor change from the original setting material. Requiring levels seems, to me and my players (I talked to them about it last night), to imply the abilities require training and/or practice to acquire. This seems to be a larger change, for what seems to me no appreciable gain in balance issues. Whether the numbers seem to work out or not, using the scion class allows a 2nd level character to gain access to all those powerful abilities you listed, whether that player aspires to be a wizard or a fighter later on. So while the 2nd level fighter is doing his/her fighter thing, and the 2nd level wizard is Sleeping and/or Magic Missile-ing away, the 2nd level scion is fighting fairly well, while also potentially able to mass charm, or turn into a shadow. Plus, on top of the great ability(s), the scion will also likely have major and minor powers to bring to bear too. How is this balanced? Am I missing something?
I concede...a 3rd level PC with 2 levels of scion and 1 of wizard will not always result in a weak character, but it will result in a weak wizard that will always be a weaker wizard than a comparable one with a minor bloodline. This seems to result in the minor bloodline wizard actually beginning to become more powerful overall than the great bloodline one as their levels advance, experience being equal. This also doesn't sound right to me.
I also concede that I am coming at this issue exclusively from the adventuring level of BR. I have done no research or thinking into how the raw balances or works out at the regency/domain-play level. To be fair, ya'all warned me in the raw that the scion levels were designed with at least 50% domain-play in mind and that it would work less well for my style of almost purely adventuring play. I just want ya'all to know I understand that I might not being giving the scion class system the full credit it deserves. I'm just expressing my concerns, as they come to me. That I am not the only one who shares some of these opinions/concerns helps me at least to believe that I'm not arbitrarily nit-picking.
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09-13-2006, 08:17 PM #13
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Originally Posted by irdeggman
Thematically and mechanically speaking, scion levels should give spellcasting levels. After all, you NEED to be blooded (if not elven) to even CAST true magic. As such, there's a strong tie between such magic and blood, and no reason thematically to not allow scion classes to have the "increases existing spellcasting level +1" modifier.Last edited by Mikal; 09-13-2006 at 08:19 PM.
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09-14-2006, 12:53 AM #14
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If you give full spellcasting progression, then the balance swings too far the other way. Fighters and rogues must give up a little bit to take scion levels (a feat, some skill points, whatever); a sorcerer gives up absolutely nothing (and a wizard gives up little).
Fundamentally, if there is one type of D&D character that doesn't really need great bloodline powers to seem impressive, it is spellcasters. That's why I don't really care that much that the scion levels are unattractive to spellcasters in the RAW - virtually anything is unattractive compared to higher level spells.
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09-14-2006, 05:13 AM #15
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Originally Posted by gazza666
That's why I don't really care that much that the scion levels are unattractive to spellcasters in the RAW - virtually anything is unattractive compared to higher level spells.
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09-14-2006, 06:09 AM #16
not to be rude, but what are you smoking Mikal?
Perhaps you are confused as to what you actually are supposed to get for the Scion class, I know I was at first, and it took help from this community for me to see the light.
Reposted from the last thread.
* Skills that are forever considered class skills. One or two that are of your own choice.
* HP, not just from the class, but bonus HP = to the lower of 1/2 Bloodscore OR RP collected per season, adjusted seasonally.
* Depending on class and derivation, Saving throws and BAB you would not normaly get.
* Depending on class and derivation, access to weapons and armor you would normally have to spend a feat to get.
* Higher levels of Blood Abilities depending on Blood Strength and Score.
* An Heirloom(useful non-charged magic item) or 2500G.
* All the Mundane items you want and a mount to carry them.
* Boost to Bloodscore likely giving more powers.
/steps off of soap box
OK, if none of that is new to you, or helpful, sorry for wasting the ink.When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire
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09-14-2006, 06:30 AM #17
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Actually I can see Mikal's point.
I acknowledge everything in that list, ploesch - but it's not enough to make me want to take scion levels as a wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric. If you removed all of that list except blood ability access, lowered the BAB progression to +1/2, made it d4 hp (with no bonus), and only good Will saves, but you added full spellcasting progression - then I'd take it as a wizard or sorcerer, sure.
I don't really care that it's not attractive to spellcasters, but I do disagree with the assertion that there is sufficient compensation for the loss of spellcasting. (At least not from a powergaming perspective, and if we're talking about mechanics then that seems a fair perspective to take).
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09-14-2006, 10:53 AM #18
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Originally Posted by Sigmund
I would again point out that the concept that leveling implies (or requires) training is not part of the core WotC philosophy. In fact it goes against many of the philosophies of published material.
Most published adventures assume that the PCs do not require time to gain benefits of leveling up. Age of Worms is a prime example. {I really think that would make an interesting one to convert to BR}.Duane Eggert
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09-14-2006, 11:40 AM #19
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I now that I have pointed out the Frequently asked questions pinned thread before as a source of past discussions on this subject but here are some more pertinent threads (and informatin):
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=1312&highlight=Powers%3A
Started in 2003
Poll results (from 2003):
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=1343&highlight=Powers%3A
Summary:
Final Chapter 2 poll results are (I've closed them, as I said I would):
Should the blood ability score be treated as a 7th ability type score?
Yes, I like the concept and treatment. 58% (18)
No, I object! 42% (13)
Should scion templates be used to represent the strength of bloodline derivation?
Yes, I agree 56% (19)
No, I object! 44% (15)
Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?
Yes, I agree 65% (24)
No, I object! 35% (13)
How I read the poll results (the line I drew for a clear majority was to be close to twice as many in favor as opposed, roughly 66% of the vote in the polls given):
A majority likes the 7th ability score use to treat the blood ability score. This is only a simple majority and not a clear majority so the proposal needs to be revamped, an alternate needs to be developed or 2 separate systems need to be presented, one as a variant.
To proceed along the path of developing another viable system the following are points that need to be addressed by any system developed:
(1) It has to be simple. At least no more complicated than the 3rd edition standard systems used, e.g., skills and feats, class advancement, spell casting, etc.
(2) The system has to be compatible with both a random based system and a planned development system (a point buy system is an example of a planned development system).
(3) The system has to mesh with 3rd edition mechanics.
(4) This one is mine and not necessarily a set in stone precept from a rule standpoint, it just makes things easier game mechanics-wise. The system should lend itself to adaptation to increasing the DCs of blood abilities that require them (similar to spell DCs).
A majority likes the scion as a template concept to represent the strength of a bloodline, again only a simple majority. The same actions as needed for the blood score above need to be taken.
A clear majority, almost 2 to 1 for like the use of ECLs for different bloodline strengths.
This is something to maintain in our minds as we pursue the above two tasks. This clearly can’t be totally addressed until the previous two issues are addressed.Duane Eggert
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09-14-2006, 12:39 PM #20
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To be pedantic, I think you mean "LA" rather than "ECL" there.
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