Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 59
  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainshound
    I have to wonder how many 20th level unblooded craftsfolk are wandering about Cerelia.
    Or indeed how many 20th level characters with NPC classes are wandering around the multiverse. I wanted to show that even the optimal case for a high level expert wasn't really all that impressive.

    Otoh, real money isn't made by one individual, but by that individual skimming from a force of others working for them.
    True, but that sort of person is pretty much a guild regent in Birthright.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 04:56 PM 9/3/2006, epicsoul wrote:

    >Keeping the concept of medieval era in mind, the idea was that
    >often, successful middle class merchants would try and "buy"
    >nobility. So, the player suggested that, on occasion, struggling
    >noble families would sell off their bloodline to a commoner who gave
    >them financial aid (and would also incidentally marry into the
    >family usually) by making an elderly uncle invest them with their
    >bloodline, rather than pass it on to their children. Note that this
    >would be for members of the family that are "off" the core branch of
    >inheritance.

    Well, first and foremost, I think there`s a fundamental difference
    between the example used and the setting`s nearest
    equivalent. Bloodline does not equate to nobility. Yes, bloodline
    allows characters to participate at higher level than other
    characters, but one can have a noble title and not a bloodline. The
    example of those who gain riches using those riches to buy their way
    into the various trappings of power/nobility is one thing. Buying a
    bloodline is another. Bloodline represents more than just a
    lineage. It represents an actual ability. Trying to purchase a
    bloodline directly would equate more directly to actually purchasing
    the vigor, personality, education or some other intrinsic quality of
    a person, not just his noble title.

    It`s also probably important to note that due to the direct
    theological origins of bloodline and the culture of (most) Cerilians
    it would probably be seen as less socially acceptable to purchase a
    bloodline. Bloodlines are, after all, the living remnant of the gods
    that was transferred to humanity in the setting`s most holy
    moment. Purchasing that power would for many Cerilians be like
    trying to bribe one of the holy figures of a major religion--not just
    the priests, mind you, but the prophets themselves. "Hey, Abraham,
    how much do you want for your status as beloved of God? C`mon, I got
    sixty shekels. No? OK, sixty-two, but not a drachma more...." Such
    a thing doesn`t get you invited to sit at the nice table with the
    fancy guests. It gives an entirely new definition to the concept of
    parvenu if one actually buys one`s way into the ranks of the divinely
    touched. (Though, historically, it wouldn`t be the first time
    either... but I digress.)

    But all that said... of course it`d happen. The differences between
    noble title and bloodline actually wind up working both ways in
    certain cases. That is, bloodline can be transferred, and it is a
    scare commodity, so nobles (who seem to run into financial troubles
    fairly often) would in certain cases wind up bargaining with
    it. Your example of a great-uncle (or aunt, cousin, third son,
    retired grandparent) is the most likely scenario, especially if they
    are childless or if their bloodline might not be all that
    strong. He`s out of line for the succession and quite getting on in
    years. On his deathbed he has no one to leave his legacy to, and a
    ceremony can transfer it to another member of the family... or
    someone who might pay top gp for it. You know, the realm has been
    rather strapped for cash lately, and the kingdom could use new
    banners for the palace. Maybe uncle should take one for the team as
    his last act.... After all, the bloodline will be lost if not
    transferred, and wouldn`t it be nice to have a little piece of the
    old boy around after he`s gone, and that nice young son of the rich
    noble may not be handsome or one of us in a strict sense, but we
    might be able to welcome him into the family for a short time before
    subjecting him to the normal amount of private disdain we express for
    all those beneath our station.

    Also, consider that among the Vos bloodline can be transferred to the
    warrior who proves he deserves it rather than remain with an unworthy
    fighter of fortunate birth. So we know that the idea isn`t totally
    alien to the concept of bloodline inheritance/transfer and even
    though many people might consider it a blasphemy, one person`s
    blasphemy is another person`s pragmatism. At some level all nobles
    wander around with the concept of committing bloodtheft on one
    another in the backs of their minds. It started happening right
    after Deismaar. Of course, commoners consider the idea too. Why not
    do it with a gold bar rather than a gilt dagger?

    I think it`s also worthwhile to consider that in the cases of
    hostages or POWs taken during war one threat to gain ransom would be
    death... but another would be divestiture. "We want 5GB for the
    prince, and 3GB more for his bloodline." If one could transfer the
    bloodline of a defeated enemy to a trusted aide de camp wouldn`t that
    be a great reward? (Assuming all parties didn`t find it utterly
    despicable, that is.) Evil characters would have no such
    compunction--which makes it an interesting thing for the DM to keep
    in his bag o` tricks.

    Gary

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Lacalfiusa
    Posts
    110
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Good points, all.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman
    It`s also probably important to note that due to the direct
    theological origins of bloodline and the culture of (most) Cerilians
    it would probably be seen as less socially acceptable to purchase a
    bloodline... Purchasing that power would for many Cerilians be like
    trying to bribe one of the holy figures of a major religion...

    But all that said... of course it`d happen.

    ...one person`s blasphemy is another person`s pragmatism. At some level all nobles wander around with the concept of committing bloodtheft on one
    another in the backs of their minds... Of course, commoners consider the idea too.

    Gary
    Of course, how commonly known is it how Bloodlines, Transferance and Usurpation works? How far down the chain of command, how far out of the dusty bookshelves of scholars, are the details, or even general mechanics, known? "Most" commoners wouldn't even have the vocabulary to discuss it, much less the time or opportunity to study it in any adequate detail to comprehend the potential.

    I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy- and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...

    "I've had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"

    Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be "nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same category, or the over-achieving magus.

    So... how do we address this in the rules?

  4. #14
    I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy- and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...

    "I've had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"

    Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be "nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same category, or the over-achieving magus.

    So... how do we address this in the rules?
    Well, first, that's a really awesome visual, and sounds like an /awesome/ villain for a campaign. Even a group of antagonists-what if those three figures you described found themselves working together to rescearch how, exactly, to take the power of the blood for themselves? Very neat possibilities.

    Getting to the actual question, though; I would think the rules for upsurption cover some of it. You just have to make sure the first scion you kill is the last of their line, and then you've got a little bit of the blood and getting more is that much easier. (Easy being an extrordinary term here.) Alternativly, I would say its rare enough that you'd just role play it out-being "adopted" or appointed heir ala Rogr Alegonder, for example, could easily be streched, from a mechanical standpoint, to cover any mostly willing exchange of bloodline power; such as our example of a scion being bought or coerced in to sharing the wealth, so to speak.

    The actual reasons-marraige, making sure the family estates stay in the family for another year, saving the count's daughter from the evil wizard, kidnapping the count's daughter and demanding his heritage in exchange-are, I think, best kept as the stuff of adventures, rather than tacking on a new mechanic when the inheritance or upsurption mechanics applied to a broader perspective work just fine.

  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 11:14 AM 9/4/2006, Cuchulainshound wrote:

    >Of course, how commonly known is it how Bloodlines, Transferance and
    >Usurpation works? How far down the chain of command, how far out of
    >the dusty bookshelves of scholars, are the details, or even general
    >mechanics, known? "Most" commoners wouldn`t even have the
    >vocabulary to discuss it, much less the time or opportunity to study
    >it in any adequate detail to comprehend the potential.

    To a certain extent, I suppose this really depends on how gritty a
    game one is going for. That is, if one wanted to portray the common
    people as uneducated (academically) and living in highly insular
    little villages then it would be likely they would have no idea what
    the nuances of bloodline were. Generally, I go for a more fantastic
    play environment in BR where the common people aren`t really the
    churls they might have been in the real world period that BR
    thematically references. That is, peasants can read, their children
    get a basic education, they are more like the early 20th century
    working class than the serfs of the middle ages. I`d support that
    idea with various other social dynamics present in the setting (a
    temple that has actually effective healing magics, for instance) to
    justify the idea as well as the way peasants are generally portrayed
    in fantasy literature. It`s more pleasant IMO if one doesn`t have to
    struggle with such things in a gaming situation.

    So, I think most commoners would have a basic idea about how
    bloodline works. They`d have been told that their leaders have a
    power "granted" (read: accidentally acquired) by the gods that they
    employ to rule, and the general background of the setting is
    understood by all. Of course, within that group would be people who
    don`t get it--who assume that, for instance, anyone can acquire a
    bloodline by stabbing a scion through the heart whether he is a scion
    himself or not (which is how the BRCS does it, I believe) but most
    people will understand that`s not how it works (in the 2e version of things.)

    However, there are nuances and a science behind bloodline that I
    don`t think the general population or even scions themselves
    understand or are even aware of. The Land`s Choice is mysterious but
    I think it is, essentially, logical and with an intelligence purpose
    that only a very few scholars of Cerilia have any inkling
    of. Furthermore, I like the idea that there is a "genetics" of
    bloodline transfer that leads to certain blood abilities manifesting
    in scions, and that BR has its equivalent of Frank Herbert`s Bene
    Gesserit who operate behind the scenes in order to understand the
    methods of that mystic force so they can manipulate it for their own ends.

    >I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the
    >Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and
    >unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial
    >headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy-
    >and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...
    >
    >"I`ve had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"
    >
    >Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be
    >"nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same
    >category, or the over-achieving magus.
    >
    >So... how do we address this in the rules?

    First of all, let me comment that I absolutely love the above
    vignette. That`s exactly the kind of vibe I enjoy in gaming in
    general, and something that I think BR is uniquely suited to address.

    As for how to do so, I would suggest the career paths of a couple of
    BR`s more infamous awnsheghlien, namely the Gorgon and the
    Serpent. At first, a scion of Cerilia might be content to gain
    temporal authority, because the construction of a kingdom is the
    quickest way to power that they are able to aspire to. However, as
    time goes on, as they gain a certain level of political influence
    they realize that the limitations of kingdom and rulership are just
    as profound as might be the limitations of... mortality
    itself. Godhood is what those two are after. After all, it is the
    power of the gods that fuels their rulership, leads to their
    transformation and is the most obvious path of power they can
    see. It has happened in the past--the Cerilian gods were themselves
    once mortals. The route to godhood is the path of power they are after.

    The first thing such characters would be interested in doing is
    increasing their bloodline. There have been several suggestions as
    to how that might happen. The Gorgon`s "rampages" might really be a
    very systematic and purposeful "sowing" of the crops of Cerilian
    scions every generation or so in order to feed his power. Hence, his
    bloodline score was originally described as being 100+ because we
    have no idea what he`s been up to for the past several
    centuries. The Serpent is similarly described as being interested in
    bloodtheft.

    Another thing these characters might do is being a temple dedicated
    to them. The Serpent has clearly gone this direction more than the
    Gorgon, but he has his own little equivalent. They would each want
    to maintain their power, certainly, but they want to rival that of
    the gods and that means worshippers.

    At that point we start getting into the area where the BR domain
    rules and the D20 class system start to require additional
    materials. We have to go to various mythos books and game mechanics
    to see how those settings have handled divine ascension. On the
    whole, however, that`s where I see the idea ultimately leading.

    Gary

  6. #16
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,018
    Downloads
    20
    Uploads
    0
    Having a bloodline means you actually have a spark of divinity inside you. A real, genuine spark of divinity. It sets you apart from lesser creatures and gives meaning to your life and a promise of great destiny.

    I can not see that this is something a lot of scions are willing to give up - even if they are dirt poor or starved to death. Maybe it happens from time to time, but it is so rare as the be almost unheard of.

    Even if a bloodline WAS sold, what would other nobles think of a House that actually sold away its divinity to a filthy commoner? I think the social reprecussions would be fatal.

    What about the churches? If done at all, this selling would probably be something that they'd like to control. Anyway, I can't figure out priests of Haelyn to King of Gods to help Nobility hand out their divinity to Commoners.

    I could go on. Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more abhorrent than bloodtheft.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  7. #17
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,018
    Downloads
    20
    Uploads
    0
    Idea: Make an awnshegh that is the result of someone buying a bloodline; his blood was corrupted by his greedy and ungodly ways, and twisted into the derivation of Azrai...
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  8. #18
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 01:39 AM 9/6/2006, Green Knight wrote:

    >Having a bloodline means you actually have a spark of divinity
    >inside you. A real, genuine spark of divinity. It sets you apart
    >from lesser creatures and gives meaning to your life and a promise
    >of great destiny.
    >
    >I can not see that this is something a lot of scions are willing to
    >give up - even if they are dirt poor or starved to death. Maybe it
    >happens from time to time, but it is so rare as the be almost unheard of.

    Well, not to come off as completely cynical (I`m only about 94%
    cynical) it isn`t the divine aspect of the character that necessarily
    guides his decision making process; it`s the human aspect. Bloodline
    would be a commodity to certain people. Imagine the attitude of a
    third or fourth son who has been effectively pushed out of the
    succession. All he wants is to live a good life, and now his family
    has cut him off. Why not sell off that nasty reminder of his
    estranged relatives? "Curse them an their `gift` of the gods... lot
    of good it ever did me...." There has to be a certain number of
    disaffected people amongst the ranks of Cerilian scions. The more
    likely scenario, however, is the one described already: an aged,
    dying member of the family whose bloodline can be passed on, with the
    help of a willing (read: well-paid) priest, to someone who will in
    exchange support the rest of the family financially.

    Those with a particularly low bloodline might not have blood
    abilities at all--the may not ever have really sensed the power of
    their bloodline or used it to much advantage. Such characters might
    be convinced to pass along their bloodline in exchange for a comfortable life.

    As for the divine nature of bloodline, consider how many people "buy"
    their way into absolution. For centuries the church literally sold
    forgiveness and performed rituals to help a person`s soul get into
    heaven. Many people who profess to be religious seem to equate their
    holiness with how much money they wield--even if they don`t actually
    donate that money to charity. Consider the outrageous greed shown by
    many religious figures (I`ll not name any) in recent years, and
    recognize that that is not a new trait. It`s been around since the
    very beginning.

    It`s also important to remember that divinity comes in many forms...
    and some of them are not all that pleasant. In BR a few of them are
    even based on greed, persuasion, manipulation, etc.

    >Even if a bloodline WAS sold, what would other nobles think of a
    >House that actually sold away its divinity to a filthy commoner? I
    >think the social reprecussions would be fatal.
    >
    >What about the churches? If done at all, this selling would probably
    >be something that they`d like to control. Anyway, I can`t figure out
    >priests of Haelyn to King of Gods to help Nobility hand out their
    >divinity to Commoners.

    Anuireans would most likely view the idea as highly repugnant, and
    react as you suggest. That is, nobles would find an excuse to
    challenge the offender, while various temples would probably shut him
    out. That assumes, of course, that the act is publicized, but any
    Anuirean worth his breeches is going to be smart enough to realize
    the act is going to be a social nightmare, so they`d keep the exchange secret.

    Among the other Cerilan cultures, however, it would be less
    offensive, ranging all the way down to the Vos who would not be
    offended by the concept much at all--except maybe in that they think
    a warrior should just take what he wants rather than _pay_ for
    it.... Several other Cerilian races (goblins, orogs, gnolls) would
    probably not find the idea terribly upsetting either. Amongst the
    Brecht... I don`t know. That`s a tough call. The commercial nature
    of the culture makes me suspect they would not be all that adverse to the idea.

    >I could go on. Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is
    >divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more
    >abhorrent than bloodtheft.

    I think that`s a pretty good articulation of how some people (the
    "lawful" and righteous Anuireans mostly, but not limited to them)
    might feel about the subject. Most nobles would be insulted by the
    offer to purchase a bloodline--if it were made outright. Of course,
    people don`t make that kind of offer directly. It`s done through the
    system of hint and innuendo so popular amongst those of power, but
    the point is that the majority of people might have attitudes similar
    to that described above, but not everyone would. In fact, in certain
    Cerilian cultures (as already mentioned) the process is described as
    overt and maybe not even requiring compensation. Do the Vos scions
    whose bloodline is given to a more worthy warrior actually get paid
    or are they simply shoved off into the varsk pit to fend for themselves?

    Gary

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Lacalfiusa
    Posts
    110
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Hmmm... <thinks a moment>...

    Varsk pit!

    (Crowd) "Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit!..."

    <ahem>

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight
    Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more abhorrent than bloodtheft.
    It is not sold... willingly. The measure of someone's "will" is highly subjective, and regretable mistakes are sometimes made when the situation dictates.

    "We have your children, and we want your bloodline. It's just that simple, really- it's time to retire... or, you can join them in the nearest ditch..."

    And temptation can be just as strong a motivator as blackmail, inimidation, or any other pressure.

    "I am willing to give you a hereditary title, and lordship over a small town on the coast, with a Trade Route worth 1 GB/season... all you have to do is give up that bloodline that the church has never honoured you for anyway..."

    Just as some Scions think nothing of bloodtheft, some could see a bloodline as merely a way to power and riches, and not the goal in and of itself. How many notable medieval clerical figures were more concerned with the luxury and power that a position would give them than with their own souls?

    Of course, I think that any such "nouveau-sang" Scion would have a huuuuuuge bullseye painted on them, because if there were ever a target of opportunity for bloodtheft with impunity, that would be them.

    Once you start to think about it, the challenges of surviving such a "purchase" start to dwarf the obstacles to achieving it in the first place.
    Last edited by Cuchulainshound; 09-06-2006 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    182
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Let's not forget, investing a Bloodline is no small matter. It takes a standard Domain Action, A willing priest and a bit of money.

    In the end, I think the rules handle the Mechanics of doing such a thing, it should be left up to the GM if they want to allow it to happen in their campaign, and the consequences of such action.

    I think at this point we are going around in circles, those who like it are fighting for it, and those that don't like it are fighting against it.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.