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  1. #21
    Member Starmage21's Avatar
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    sure it is. If you have an all drow party in a game involving mostly drow, then you can ignore the +2 LA from being drow, because its already balanced against the rest of the party(IE: theyre all drow).
    Peace is a lie,
    There is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  2. #22
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Actually, that's wrong: the LA is not there to adjust the characters' power in relation to other party members, but to the world itself; a party consisting of 1st-level drow characters and coming face to face with 1st-level encounters is getting off the hook a party consisting of 1st-level human characters would be facing, getting more wealth, etc.!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    Also it is impossible to maintain balance between players when using LA templates and starting at 1st level. How would you feel if you could only have 1st level human fighter while your "friend" got to play a 1st level fighter at the same time (ECL 3). Both are 1st level fighters but one has the equivalent of LA template.
    Um, with respect, that arguement doesn't hold spit.

    A 1st level character and an identical character that is Blooded are NOT going to be "balanced." That's what being Blooded is all about, by definition- the blood-essence of a freakin' GAWD runs through your veins, ferkrysake!

    "The young Achilles sets off with several of his childhood companions..."

    If a GM wanted that situation, he clearly doesn't want "to maintain balance", and players shouldn't expect it. Is that "fair"? No, it's gross favoritism to let one player be Blooded and the rest not. But if that's the set-up the GM wants, then that's what you get.

    A more accurate picture is painted using the current rules- to create a pair of "starting" characters, one 1st level and one 1st level Blooded, the latter has to start off at either 2nd or 3rd level (depending on his Bloodline, and whether he "has lived up to his full potential").

    When you compare Blooded and non-blooded characters, you shouldn't expect any equitable comparison.
    Last edited by Cuchulainshound; 09-06-2006 at 07:43 PM.

  4. #24
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starmage21
    sure it is. If you have an all drow party in a game involving mostly drow, then you can ignore the +2 LA from being drow, because its already balanced against the rest of the party(IE: theyre all drow).
    Since I said human 1st level fighter versus a drow 1st level fighter. . . .
    Duane Eggert

  5. #25
    Senior Member Sigmund's Avatar
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    I find myself agreeing with Cuchulainshound on this issue. Let me make clear that I haven't yet DMed my BR campaign and I'm not even sure if I'm going to use DnD at all to run it, but based on what I've read, both of the various edition rules and the posts in this thread, I find the scion class leaving a bad taste in my mouth. To be fair, I prefer "lighter" rules, which is why I'm seriously leaning toward True20 as the rules I'm going to use for my BR campaign. However, IMO from even a flavour standpoint, Blooded characters have always struck me as being intended to stand above even other adventurers. That's why they are described as being rare, and accorded such respect. I remember reading in the 2e setting that there are thought to be no more than 150 true wizards in all of Cerilia....that's pretty frickin' rare. This says to me that Scions are exceptional individuals who shouldn't, IMO, be "balanced" with commoners or the normal challenges that commoners face. Also, what I haven't seen mentioned so far is the downsides that being blooded should carry. Blooded characters are going to become well known, indeed famous (or infamous) even, much more quickly than commoners. This, IMO, will have the old west gunfighter effect of drawing every rogue, awnsheigh, and wanna-be thug out gunning for the Scion. Having the Scion with his blood powers in the group means that the GM has a perfect opportunity, I daresay even responsibility, to throw challenges at the group that a group of common-born adventurers wouldn't have to face. They'll need that little bit of extra power, at least IMC they will.

    Another downside is that the regents who rule in the areas that the Scion will travel through will most certainly keep a close eye on the group if they get wind of a Blooded individual travelling and adventuring in the area. If I were regent you can bet your buttocks I'd watch anyone who could be a potential threat to my power.

    As I see it, being a Scion in BR is much like being a movie star in today's world. No privacy, people trying to take advantage of you all the time, constant intrusions on your time from people who "need help only you can provide", scary people lurking about trying to hurt you, and the uncertainty of never knowing who to truely trust.

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainshound
    Um, with respect, that arguement doesn't hold spit.

    A 1st level character and an identical character that is Blooded are NOT going to be "balanced." That's what being Blooded is all about, by definition- the blood-essence of a freakin' GAWD runs through your veins, ferkrysake!
    Alright. Run the numbers for 1st level characters. A first level scion will have a bloodline of no higher than 36. If he rolled an 18 and put that in is blood score (then doubled it). If he did not take a scion class level he would have 4 minor blood abilites. Compare those to say the spell like abilities of a gnome (in the core rules). Pretty much "minor" blood abilities will not place the characters out of balance substanationally.

    If he could take 1 scion class level then he could have 2 minors and 2 major blood abilities, bonus hit points and any of the regent benefets (listed as variants in Chap 8) - like extra starting funds to purchase things like a "magic weapon". If he could take 2 scion class levels he could have 2 minors, 1 major and 1 great as well as the extra hit points and other regent benefits.

    A starting character has to choose where to put his ability rolls. If he chooses to place that 18 in his blood score slot then he has "decided" not to place it into an ability that works for adventureing instead.

    Sorry but the "spit" is indeed pretty well balanced here.

    "The young Achilles sets off with several of his childhood companions..."

    If a GM wanted that situation, he clearly doesn't want "to maintain balance", and players shouldn't expect it. Is that "fair"? No, it's gross favoritism to let one player be Blooded and the rest not. But if that's the set-up the GM wants, then that's what you get.
    And nothing can be done rules wise to "force" the balance if a DM chooses to play things that way can it?

    A more accurate picture is painted using the current rules- to create a pair of "starting" characters, one 1st level and one 1st level Blooded, the latter has to start off at either 2nd or 3rd level (depending on his Bloodline, and whether he "has lived up to his full potential").

    When you compare Blooded and non-blooded characters, you shouldn't expect any equitable comparison.
    In second ed this was very much the case but with the advant of "balance" in 3.0 this is no longer true.

    IMO you have missed the entire point of racial levels and template levels as a means to insert a semblence of balance into a game. Again, by "balance" I mean that 2 players will both feel that each has roughly the same starting point as each other.

    If 1 player starts off 3 levels higher than another I can guarantee that there will be some hurt feelings at that gaming table. If not then there is some real good medication in play there.

    From the intro to "Gaining a Template Mid-campaign" articles (which I have placed a link to earleir- but have attached the files as Word documents here for ease of use).

    But what if an established character gains a template in the middle of the campaign? Many of the templates presented in the Monster Manual are acquired, which means a character can gain them during the course of a game. What happens when your 10th-level ranger is attacked by a lycanthrope, gains the wereboar template, and thereby jumps from ECL 10 to ECL 12? Suddenly your ranger is more powerful than the other PCs, and balancing encounters becomes much more difficult for the DM. An encounter that's challenging for the ranger's allies is easy for him, and one that's challenging for him can be deadly for his allies. Such an imbalance can also make the other players jealous or resentful of the templated character. Fortunately, there is a solution.


    The same logic applies when looking at scions.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
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    On 9/6/06, Cuchulainshound <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    > Um, with respect, that arguement doesn`t hold spit.

    Be less hostile, please.

    > A 1st level character and an identical character that is Blooded are NOT going to be
    > "balanced." That`s what being Blooded is all about, by definition- the blood-essence of a
    > freakin` GAWD runs through your veins, ferkrysake!

    So you admit that a scion is more powerful than his level would
    otherwise indicate, and some mechanical notation that he is more
    powerful in the game would be useful. Great.

    > "The young Achilles sets off with several of his childhood companions..."
    >
    > If a GM wanted that situation, he shouldn`t want "to maintain balance", and players
    > shouldn`t expect it. Is that "fair"? No, it`s gross favoritism to let one player be Blooded
    > and the rest not. But if that`s the set-up the GM wants, then that`s what you get.

    You`re right. If the GM is a bad GM, he can ruin the players` fun.
    The rules should not encourage this, however.

    > A more accurate picture is painted using the current rules- to have create a pair of
    > "starting" characters, one 1st level and one 1st level Blooded, the latter has to start off at
    > either 2nd or 3rd level (depending on his Bloodline, and whether he "has lived up to his full
    > potential").
    >
    > When you compare Blooded and non-blooded characters, you shouldn`t expect any
    > equitable comparison.

    If they`re both PCs, or in competition with PCs, they need to be
    mechanically balanced. It wouldn`t be fair for one player to start
    out with a 3rd level character and the other to start out with a 1st
    level character, would it? The same applies to scions and nonscion
    characters.

    Listen. We`re not saying a 1st level scion should be just as tough as
    a 1st level nonscion adventurer. We`re admitting that the scion is
    tougher, and putting in a game artifact that reflects this.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

  8. #28
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:19 PM 9/6/2006, Sigmund wrote:

    >I remember reading in the 2e setting that there are thought to be no
    >more than 150 true wizards in all of Cerilia....

    Argh. If there`s anything in the original materials that I actually
    _hate_ it`s that one. I hate it worse than battlespells or the
    warcard system (pthoo!) It`s so vague as to be meaningless (what
    does "true wizard" mean?) and the number is so low that it makes the
    already artificially small population numbers of Cerilia shrink down
    to nearly nothing.... Oh, well.

    Gary

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman
    At 01:19 PM 9/6/2006, Sigmund wrote:

    >I remember reading in the 2e setting that there are thought to be no
    >more than 150 true wizards in all of Cerilia....

    Argh. If there`s anything in the original materials that I actually
    _hate_ it`s that one. I hate it worse than battlespells or the
    warcard system (pthoo!) It`s so vague as to be meaningless (what
    does "true wizard" mean?) and the number is so low that it makes the
    already artificially small population numbers of Cerilia shrink down
    to nearly nothing.... Oh, well.

    Gary
    Yeah. I think we mostly came to the conclusion that this number must only be non-elves. In that perspective it is probably pretty decent, well at least not too hard to swallow.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by geeman
    At 01:19 PM 9/6/2006, Sigmund wrote:

    >I remember reading in the 2e setting that there are thought to be no
    >more than 150 true wizards in all of Cerilia....

    Argh. If there`s anything in the original materials that I actually
    _hate_ it`s that one. I hate it worse than battlespells or the
    warcard system (pthoo!) It`s so vague as to be meaningless (what
    does "true wizard" mean?) and the number is so low that it makes the
    already artificially small population numbers of Cerilia shrink down
    to nearly nothing.... Oh, well.

    Gary
    True Wizard meant someone who could cast spells and was a Wizard. Magician is the only magical throwing template (excluding Bard) that a non-blooded could take. In essence, a watered down illusionist. And based on the way the Scion levels are, it kinda sucks for Blooded Wizards or Priests since they need to dump 1 to 2 levels that do not benefit their spell progression. The classes are "melee" centric.

    Personally, I would give the Scion levels as "shadow levels." You get the benefit from them but does not effect how much exp you need to go up a level.

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