Scion class question

[geeman]

At 03:10 PM 9/4/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>>When a Scion relinquishes their Bloodline to a Successor, what of
>>that level? I suppose it becomes like a level of Paladin when his
>>oath is broken- largely wasted.
>
>Treat it as a level loss. There are already rules for that. The use
>of scion class levels makes for a smoother transition this way then
>via use of LA templates.

I could be misreading the
<http://www.birthright.net/member.php?u=5954>Cuchulainshound`s
comment, but I think the point there was not how the situation would
be handled game mechanically, but that using character class levels
to reflect that loss is somewhat odd. That is, if one has a problem
with scions levelling up to use what was originally their innate
ability then one will have a similar problem with how the bloodline
as character class issue handles the problem of losing that
bloodline. The character had to earn experience and, effectively,
spend them on the class to learn to use his bloodline. Should he
voluntarily give up his bloodline its not just that power he gives
up, but the XP he spent to learn to use it in the first place. It
turns bloodline into a sword AND a skill rather than a sword
alone. To extend the metaphor, if you hand over your sword you
essentially also lose your skill at fencing as well. Should the
character regain his bloodline does he have to level up again?

Gary

[Sorontar]

So if the Vos Paladin of Haelyn NPC, Teodor, doesn't ever use his blood abilities due to them being from the Azrai line, does that mean he doesn't have any Scion levels at all??
Because if don't use them, you can never "train" on how to call them forth.

Sorontar.

[geeman]

At 05:12 PM 9/4/2006, Sorontar wrote:

>So if the Vos Paladin of Haelyn NPC, Teodor, doesn`t ever use his
>blood abilities due to them being from the Azrai line, does that
>mean he doesn`t have any Scion levels at all??
>
>Because if don`t use them, you can never "train" on how to call them forth.

That`s a very interesting question/situation because it does point
out a few dynamics of Azrai`s bloodline that should be
addressed. Azrai`s bloodline as described in Teodor`s description
and in a couple other places of the original BR materials is
inherently corrupting. I don`t know where this is reflected anywhere
in the existing materials other, perhaps, than in the likelihood of
Azrai`s bloodline to corrupt that of other scions who commit
bloodtheft. However, the effect of awnsheghlien transformation is
another example of how that dynamic can play itself out, as are some
of the indications that those of Azrai`s bloodline are constantly
tempted (read: forced alignment shift) by their bloodline. In Teodor
the Unlikely Paladin`s case, I`d suggest that the issue is really
more a matter of that last. That is, as he levels up he must resist
the temptation to become evil that his bloodline directs him
towards. He would, therefore, lose his paladinhood not just by using
his blood abilities, but because his bloodline itself corrupts him over time.

It`s debatable whether using his blood abilities or not would
increase the corrupting effect of his bloodline, but off the cuff I
think that "yes" is the most likely response most folks would
give. It`s such a mainstay of fantasy/sci-fi that it fits right into
the concept.

In any case, here`s the table/system I use for this
issue. Characters with the blood of Azrai must make a Will save when
they level up to determine whether their bloodline has corrupted
them. The DC of that save is their target character level plus any
of the modifiers listed below:

TABLE 5: CORRUPTION CHECK MODIFIERS
Modifier Condition
+1 For two levels taken (voluntarily or involuntarily) in the
awnshegh character class.
+1 Each BP spent on the Bloodform blood ability.
+1 If you have any of the following "signature" blood abilities
of Azrai: death touch, fear, regeneration, touch of decay, wither
touch. This modifier is cumulative for each of those blood abilities
you have.
+2 If you became an awnshegh as the result of bloodtheft (ie.
have the awnshegh template.)
+2 If you have taken the Major Transformation feat.
+1 Character`s alignment is already chaotic.
+1 Character`s alignment is already evil.

A scion of Azrai who has earned enough XP to take a 7th level, for
instance, must make a DC 7 Will save to avoid taking that level as an
awnshegh. If that same character already has two levels as an
awnshegh, and the Fear blood ability then he must make a DC 10 check.

Failing this check means you must take a level in the awnshegh
character class rather than in a character class of your choice, or
your alignment changes one step towards chaotic evil. That is, a
lawful good character becomes either lawful neutral or neutral
good. Whether to take an awnshegh level, change alignment or what
the alignment change will be is the player`s choice as long as such
an alignment change is possible. A scion of Azrai who is already
chaotic evil must take an awnshegh level if he fails this check upon
leveling up. In some cases (and with the DM`s approval) your
alignment may change to one that is based on the theme of your
transformation. An alignment change based upon an awnsheghlien theme
can never be one of the good alignments. If you fail this check by 5
or more you must both take a level in the awnshegh character class
and your alignment changes one step towards chaotic evil.

Hope that makes some sense,
Gary

[irdeggman]

So if the Vos Paladin of Haelyn NPC, Teodor, doesn't ever use his blood abilities due to them being from the Azrai line, does that mean he doesn't have any Scion levels at all??
Because if don't use them, you can never "train" on how to call them forth.

Sorontar.

This is just another example of how "well" the 2nd ed rules worked. Per the rules Vos could not be paladins (only Anuireans and Khinasi could).

Also we need to remove from out thought process the concept of "training" as being an inherent part of level progression. In the 3.5 rules it is not and in fact the rules (core rules) are designed so that "training" is not part of them at all. "Experience" and "training" are different things and not intertwined in the core rules - as I pointed out there are variant rules to cover how the two can be tied together though.

There are several possibilities here.

It is never mentioned as to "how" he got his bloodine.

Did he start with one and then have it courrupted by bloodtheft? {He is described as being dedicated to destroying awnies}

Did he gain his bloodline from bloodtheft? {Another pretty viable option}

Was he born with his Azrai bloodline? {Probably the least possible due to how the Vos are described, how they "transfer bloodlines to the worthy" and how a paladin of Haelyn would be so out of place in the Heartless Wastes that he would most likey have had his bloodline "offered" up to someone more worthy.}

Now using BRCS mechanics he can have either 1 level of scion class or not.

If he had no levels of scion bloodline then he would be limited to 2 blood abilities (both minor). Which would knock down his resistance (major) to resistance (minor). If he did have 1 level of scion class he would have the blood abilities as listed. Both option are viable and play out only slightly different game wise.

Scion class levels give certain benefits. Access to higher than minor blood abilities, bonus HP if a regent (not applicable to this PC). Bonus class always skills, regent benefits (if used) {again not applicable to this NPC}, etc. In the case of this NPC IMO it better fits if he doesn't ahve any scion class levels.

Now remember that the entirety of game mechanics in 2nd ed was different than those of 3.5 so those must be kept in mind when looking at things. That is an overall picture of how things interrelate and function must be kept in mind. The 3.5 rules are so inherently tied together that if one house-rules one aspect then there is almost always a domino effect on the other parts of the game that weren't forseen - I have seen this happen numerous times when someone makes what they consider a "minor" tweak and eventually end up making large changes via house-rules to maintain the "balance" of the game.

This problem didn't exist in 2nd ed because the entire system (2nd ed) was not balanced at all.

[RaspK_FOG]

Kudos to irdeggman, here. Guys, check up on the DMG for a moment: there is a whole chapter dedicated to how should a DM reflect any demands for training, making obvious how levels (NOT Hit Dice) denote an increase in the character's experience and overall power, unlike Hit Dice, which denote toughness and general aptitude for survival.

[Cuchulainshound]

(G-man- on the nosey.)

The test here is to take two identical Scions, recently blooded or no- one takes a level of Scion, one a level of... oh, Noble. Do the game mechanics reflect a good "feel" for the differences those choices should yield? Similarly with the Blood of Azrai, similarly with "losing/relinquishing" one's bloodline.

And, then compare that with identical situations using templates, which imo more accurately reflect the cathartic change, (but their flaw lies with problems with ECL's after the fact, how the "next" level is attained, etc.)

(And I can't give my opinion, because the DAMN VERSION CONFLICTS WON'T LET ME OPEN THE FRIGGIN' DOCUMENT! AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH...)

Ahem. (Better, for now.)

I missed 2nd ed- went from AD&D into other games, and didn't return until 3rd, but... from what I've seen and heard, I won't disagree.

If the minority opinion can present a compelling arguement for why Templates are better than Levels... we're still the minority opinion. The ONLY reason to change would be flaws, in mechanics or game-feel, that arise during play-testing. Short of that, as this is a consensus process, we can pursue this as an intellectual excercise, but can't hold high hopes of changing anything.

[ThatSeanGuy]

This is just another example of how "well" the 2nd ed rules worked. Per the rules Vos could not be paladins (only Anuireans and Khinasi could).

Yeah, I think that's a case of crappy editing, or maybe the authors trying to say, "Okay, we don't mean /always/. Just, like, usualy."-I mean, Khinasi not being able to be Paladins of Cuirecaen or Nesrie makes even less sense than the whole cultural cutoff in the first place. Especialy when there're more Nesrie temple holdings in Khinasi than in Anuire! (I think. Its been a bit.)

Anyway, it was a dumb rule, and I'm glad its gone in BRCS. Sure, you're more likely to find a Rujurk "holy warrior" being a Ranger dedicated to Erik, but a hard restriction always felt silly to me. Heck, I'd allow Goblin paladins of Cuirecaen(I'm probably spelling this horrible. Need to get my book back.), but perhaps this is because I'm a hippy.

[Cuchulainshound]

That was also back in the day when D&D Core Rules blurred the distinction between pure "game mechanics" and individual "world flavour". 'nuff said on that mistake.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, templates are fine for the most part, unless you hit the ever-present obstacle: progression of power.

In 2e, power was entirely relative; most monsters have no ability scores what so ever, for example, which has given me quite a headache when I want to reiterate a 2e adventure book in 3e (a literal hell). Likewise, various issues crop up in this field as well: in 2e, you simply got the thing and *POOF* you got all the powers like that. In 3e, that's what a template does.

You'll probably wonder where's the problem by now. Well, believe it or not, the greatest arises from gameplay: while templates are nicely worked out for NPCs, genetic traits or sudden transformation, it lends poorly to any character gaining any sort of power that does not somehow set him so apart from the party that he usually is removed or challenged due to this very change. Thus, Wizards of the Coast thought of a simple solution to the problem: we are going to build an abstract system that allows the acquisition of "monster" Hit Dice and Level Adjustment through the acquisition of levels in a "monster" class.

While this does not always help the world's verisimilitude (in fact, it slightly degrades it, due to our view on the various mythoi), it lends a bit of realism: everyone has to "discover" his new capacity of action and/or reaction to properly adjust (i.e. use) his mannerisms. A work around to both problems is to grant the player a minor effect that he can't control, or grant automatic conditions earlier. For example, Gaelin in "The Falcon and the Wolf" has the blood abilities to heal faster, as well as Divine Wrath (Anduiras bloodline). Had he obtained these abilities at some point in his life (for the sake of the argument), Divine Wrath is a better candidate logic-wise for a sudden manifestation, wherease faster healing makes more sense in terms of reduced effectiveness at lower levels to compensate for non-existence until one attains the proper level.

[irdeggman]

Also it is impossible to maintain balance between players when using LA templates and starting at 1st level. How would you feel if you could only have 1st level human fighter while your "friend" got to play a 1st level fighter at the same time (ECL 3). Both are 1st level fighters but one has the equivalent of LA template.