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Thread: Lieutenants

  1. #1
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    Lieutenants

    Hi all- a question about Lieutenants...

    The core rules (2nd Ed) state that a lieutenant essentially gives the regent an extra domain action. But only one extra regardless of the number of lieutenants he has.

    So what's the point of having more than one (aside from having varying chances of success perhaps if they're specialized)?

    Also, some realms indicate that lieutenants run much of the show. For example, in Tribes of the Heartless Waste it says the Raven leaves the governance of the provinces to his lieutanents. What does that mean as far as what they can do? I mean, they're not blooded, and they're not vassals. So, how can they run things if they collectively can only do one domain action amongst them?

    Maybe i'm missing fundamental about lieutenants. Anyone care to shed some light? Thanks!


    -Fizz

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    Fizz schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3070
    > Fizz wrote:
    > Hi all- a question about Lieutenants...
    >
    > The core rules (2nd Ed) state that a lieutenant essentially gives the regent an extra domain action. But only one extra regardless of the number of lieutenants he has.
    >
    > So what`s the point of having more than one (aside from having varying chances of success perhaps if they`re specialized)?
    >
    > Also, some realms indicate that lieutenants run much of the show. For example, in Tribes of the Heartless Waste it says the Raven leaves the governance of the provinces to his lieutanents. What does that mean as far as what they can do? I mean, they`re not blooded, and they`re not vassals. So, how can they run things if they collectively can only do one domain action amongst them?
    >
    > Maybe i`m missing fundamental about lieutenants. Anyone care to shed some light? Thanks!
    >
    You can have *different* lieutenants who have different areas of
    expertise - e.g. a spymaster who is perfect for performing that
    Espionage action once in a while, a cleric who just shines when doing
    Agitate, an aristocrat good at expanding holdings by Rule action...

    Tribes of the Heartless Waste is a special case in that already the 2E
    Birthright material mentioned that only the strong survive in Vosgaard
    and that noone gets anything done there by sitting in his castle at home
    and just spending regency points - the personal presence of someone is
    needed and so it could be assumed that in Vosgaard most is done using
    the ADVENTURE action - doing just the same but with personal presence
    and risk.

  3. #3
    This brings about another question: does having a lieutenant in the 3rd edition rule give you another standard action, or a court action, for domain play along with the regent, or only when the regent himself cannot be there? If so, why, if not, why not?

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:42 AM 8/16/2006, Fizz wrote:

    >The core rules (2nd Ed) state that a lieutenant essentially gives
    >the regent an extra domain action. But only one extra regardless of
    >the number of lieutenants he has.
    >
    >So what`s the point of having more than one (aside from having
    >varying chances of success perhaps if they`re specialized)?

    At the domain level, that really is the only point in having more
    than one. Certain LTs are better suited to particular actions (or
    random events) so a regent might have several in order to pick and
    choose who deals with what. However, because the domain level is
    just a step above the adventure level LTs might also represent
    cohorts or similarly adventuring companions that the regent has
    influence with and who are able to act on his/er behalf. In some
    ways having more than one LT is really a reflection of that adventure
    level dynamic into the domain level. If one were to role-play the
    domain level actions and/or participate in an Adventure action then
    all those LTs can come into play.

    >Also, some realms indicate that lieutenants run much of the
    >show. For example, in Tribes of the Heartless Waste it says the
    >Raven leaves the governance of the provinces to his
    >lieutanents. What does that mean as far as what they can do? I
    >mean, they`re not blooded, and they`re not vassals. So, how can
    >they run things if they collectively can only do one domain action
    >amongst them?

    There are also a few characters in the 2e materials who are regents
    in their own right who were described as being LTs of another, more
    powerful, regent. In the 2e materials things were often a little
    sketchy as to how the dynamics described in the background or realm
    descriptions actually were portrayed in the game mechanics, and on
    occasion the ideas expressed in the colour text was not very well in
    line with the actual rules. There are a couple cases where the
    nominal regent is really the ruler only in name. Some other
    character (nominally a LT) is probably the actual regent for gaming
    purposes. So the regent (small R) is really just a figurehead while
    his lieutenant (small L) is in fact that Regent (capital R) of the
    nation and the regent is really possibly the Lieutenant of the
    character considered by most his lieutenant.

    As convoluted as that might sound it makes sense if we replace the
    vocabulary a little bit. That is, if one imagined the relationship
    of king and prime minister. In some situations the king might be the
    absolute ruler of a realm while the PM is his able assistant. In
    another relationship the PM might be the "power behind the throne"
    who really rules the nation, but does so using the king as a
    figurehead. The PM in such a scenario is really the regent while the
    king assists him.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon
    Tribes of the Heartless Waste is a special case in that already the 2E
    Birthright material mentioned that only the strong survive in Vosgaard
    and that noone gets anything done there by sitting in his castle at home
    and just spending regency points - the personal presence of someone is
    needed and so it could be assumed that in Vosgaard most is done using
    the ADVENTURE action - doing just the same but with personal presence
    and risk.
    I don't think it's a special case for Vosgaard. In Ruins of Empire, it says that Darien Avan gives much of the running of his domain to his lieutenants.

    So, the question remains. How can several lieutenants run a domain if they're only allowed one domain action amongst them?


    -Fizz

  6. #6
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    On 8/17/06, Fizz <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    > I don`t think it`s a special case for Vosgaard. In Ruins of Empire, it says that Darien Avan gives much of the running of his domain to his lieutenants.
    >
    > So, the question remains. How can several lieutenants run a domain if they`re only allowed one domain action amongst them?

    Easily, they`re just not DOING much. They have one action per domain
    turn to respond to any random events that occur. If nothing requires
    their attention, they use their action for a Rule, Contest, or some
    other type of action. They take free actions like Build. They
    collect income and pay maintenance. The domain isn`t completely
    stagnant, it`s not growing much, but it`s not declining either, and
    the regent has a solid base from which to adventure/go to
    war/whatever.

    PC domains whose seasons are a very busy sequence of "Rule
    Province/Rule Holding/Rule Holding" are very much the exception in the
    world, not the rule.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanMcSorley
    Easily, they`re just not DOING much. They have one action per domain turn to respond to any random events that occur. If nothing requires their attention, they use their action for a Rule, Contest, or some other type of action. They take free actions like Build. They
    collect income and pay maintenance. The domain isn`t completely
    stagnant, it`s not growing much, but it`s not declining either, and
    the regent has a solid base from which to adventure/go to
    war/whatever.

    PC domains whose seasons are a very busy sequence of "Rule
    Province/Rule Holding/Rule Holding" are very much the exception in the
    world, not the rule.
    --
    Daniel McSorley
    OK, this just seems at odds with the notion that a lieutenant is nearly a full representation of the regent.

    Is there a difference between the 2nd Ed version of a lieutenant and the BRCS version? I can't actually find the rule in the BRCS that says `one extra domain action', but the BRCS does say:

    "A recognized lieutenant can stand in for the regent in almost any domain-level matter and is recognized as wielding the same authority as the regent
    himself."

    and

    "A regent’s lieutenant speaks with the regent’s authority and is capable of running a regent’s domain for prolonged periods if necessary."


    To me, these imply that one domain action would not be sufficient. And multiple lieutenants are still restricted to only one action? It doesn't make sense.


    -Fizz

  8. #8
    There are also a few characters in the 2e materials who are regents
    in their own right who were described as being LTs of another, more
    powerful, regent.
    Not to be Professor Smarmy, but I think that's more a matter of names than anything else. Like, I know I always just assumed that when they called another full on, domain-having regent a 'LT', they ment it as a synonym for 'vassal(What with the giving RPs and all.)' instead of an actual coded 'LT'. That seems to make the problem you mentioned go away, for the most part, though its certainly possible that some vassals might also have formal LT duties-nothing in the rules say you can't be both, after all.

  9. #9
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    I think you confusion comes from understanding what running a nation entails.

    IMO, in this context, running a nation is talking about all the decisons that go into every day life. As the Regent, do you really want to have to sit through the endless meetings about minor trade disputes within your borders, sitting in judgement of every cutpurse, and personally meeting evry minor landowner that comes through your provinces?

    All these things do not require domain actions, but they do require allot of time. This is something I stress to my players. You can appoint judges and mediators, but they are minor NPC's, if you have a lieutenant in charge of these things, then you have more control over their abilities, not to mention better starting stats.

    Remember, typically a minor NPC is considered unskilled, or first level at most, not to mention they are rolled up with straight dice. Lieutenants are PC's in their own right, like henchmen, they are rolled up using the same dice as PC's and can level. A few good, trusted lieutenants can make up for a PC's shortfalls, and that's why you may want more than one.

    Edit:
    Cause I was smoking crack or something. (I was running late for getting to work)

    I think irdeggman summed up where I was heading very well.
    Last edited by ploesch; 08-18-2006 at 10:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal
    This brings about another question: does having a lieutenant in the 3rd edition rule give you another standard action, or a court action, for domain play along with the regent, or only when the regent himself cannot be there? If so, why, if not, why not?
    Per the rules a Lt doesn't give you any more actions.

    It will allow you to have someone else perform them for you. And by combining his character action with the standard action he can apply his personal benefits to the outcome (e.g., skill ranks, feats, etc.)

    This frees up the regent to perform other actions like adventuring or research, etc. that may take up a lot of his time without having to worry about someone not qualified performing the domain actions for him (e.g. relying on his court so that there are no benefits to the outcome).
    Duane Eggert

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