Chapter 5

[gazza666]

It looks pretty clear to me that Ply Trade used with a Craft skill is using the "work for a week" method of payment as opposed to the "make an item and sell it" method. As such, the DC is irrelevant. Yes, this means that in D&D the crafts of basketweaving and gemcutting are equally profitable. Yes, this is silly. But that's the core rules, and as it's not really germane to Birthright, it seems out of place to change them here.

I don't see any particular reason why you couldn't use Ply Trade to make items, though, where the DC does become (slightly) relevant. I say slightly, because Craft checks never get that hard - it's only DC20 for a masterwork item, after all, which should be comfortably in the range of any 5th level PC that cares (8 ranks and masterwork tools).

[ploesch]

Domain Maintenance: I think that there should be some type of maintenace based on the number of holdings, OR just for each level 0 holding. The reason is that while according to the rules of GB generating holding, they take into account their cost of running in the GB's they generate. However, level 0 holdings take money to run, do not generate GB's, and offer the benefit of being able to automatically know what happens with holdings of a type in a province as well as allowing you to spend Regency and GB's to assist/challenge the actions of other regents in a provice.

So a Source regent could create Temple, Law and Guild holdings in all provinces where he has sources. in this way he could challenge any actions by any regent in those provinces, and never worry about the cost of such. What's worse, is an enemy regent could create all types of holdings in another regents province and contest all activity there. This would be especially devastating to a new regent, as the PC's would be.

IMO, there needs to be some type of cost to having level 0 holdings, some type of limiting factor.

I propose a 1/10 GB per holding, OR a 1/6 GB per 0-level holding. This would keep it inline with the 2Ed. rules, while at the same time taking into account that there are more domain expenses now.

[ploesch]

In my limited experience with 3ed BRCS I have found that Landed regents have far more costs than other regents, and typically about the same incomes.

Unlike other regents, Landed regents have to pay for Highway Maintenance, Bridges, ferrys, shipyards, seaports, and MOST importantly Military units. Sure, the regent can make deals with non-landed regents for funds for these, but most have no reason to pay, or could say they pay their taxes (represented by province incomes), IE the regent is responsible for these.

I have to admit, I may be completely off target here. My experience is with Elinie, and the landed regent there holds minimal law, is a Paladin without temple or any other holdings, and the lands aren't exactly teeming with people.

I was thinking that taxation for Provinces could be increased in one of two ways.
1. Province income instead of being level could be level x2 or x1 1/3. It would need to be tested.
2. In addition to normal taxes, Province rulers would gain 1 GB for every 5 total levels of Guild and temple holdings. This would better represent additional taxes on money making activities.

I may be totally off base though, my experience in 3ed is limited.

A better option might be to have all things that have a maintenance cost have a benefit for the controlling regent. Most do, Wondrous structures give RP, Military units and fortifications have obvious benefits, a Highways, Bridges, Seaports, and ships all have benefits to trade. There are really only 2 types of maintained items that don't benefit regents directly, both of them would be the livlihood of a PC or NPC decided to start them themselves.

Ferrys - While they do work as a bridge for Military movement, they don't for caravans. I think just allowing a ferry to work as a bridge for a caravan would be enough to encourage guild rulers to create them.

Alternate: A ferry could give a seasonal profit of 1/100 the total of the province levels inolved. So a ferry connecting a level 3 and a level 5 province would generate 8/100 gold bars per domain turn for the season. This represents caravans and individuals using the ferry.

Shipyard - Owning a shipyard should decrease the cost of Mustering and maintaining Ships. Afterall, you pay for the labor and materials, and not a profit. So, a shipyard can support any number of ships which could be mustered there. The benefit is that the muster cost and maintenance cost of any active ships is only 3/4 normal. Time to muster is unaffected, and since garrisoned ships wouldn't require much from a shipyard their maintenance cost is unaffected. This is an obvious benefit to anyone that needs to Maintain a navy.

Alternate: Instead of the above rules, a shipyard can count as a Guild holding 1/3 the shipyards level, and it doesn't count against the provinces other guild holdings in any way. So a Province level 4 could support 2 Guild regents with combined guild level of 4, AND a shipyard of up to level 4 which would count as a guild holding 1 1/3 for collecting GB, regency and trade routes. This will help offset the costs of Maintenance and mustering navy's, and even offer a benefit to regents that don't have a navy. To limit abuse, no province can have more than one shipyard, and a shipyard can only exist in a province with a seaport, also if a regent has more than 1 shipyard withing 15 nautical units of each other, they can only gain benefits from one of them. Obviously, the shipyard needs to adjoin waters that are deep and wide enough to handle ships of a size the shipyard can create.


One last thing on shipyards...
According to the BRCS rules, a shipyard cannot exceed the level of the povince it is in. Also, a Shipyard cannot create a ship with a muster cost higher than double the shipyard level. So, without using any variant rules, and according to the 2Ed. maps, the only place in anuire that can support building Galleons is "The City of Anuire", and there is not a port in Khinasi that can support beuilding Zebecs. Obviously, that isn't really going to work.

I agree with shipyards not being able to exceed the province level, but the rules should allow for ships of the right level to be made. So, one of 2 things should happen. Either shipyards can support ships of up to 3 times their level, OR, and I like this idea better, they can support any ship of 2 times their level,a nd cultural ships of 3 times thier level. This would allow any shipyard of 5+ to support making galleons, but in any other culture it would require 8+, for zebecs, a khinasi shipyard of 6+ would do, while anywhere else they would need a shipyard of 9+. This would represent how a craftsman is better making structures they are familiar with, than ones that are relatively new to them.

[Cuchulainshound]

In my limited experience with 3ed BRCS I have found that Landed regents have far more costs than other regents, and typically about the same incomes.

Unlike other regents, Landed regents have to pay for Highway Maintenance, Bridges, ferrys, shipyards, seaports, and MOST importantly Military units. Sure, the regent can make deals with non-landed regents for funds for these, but most have no reason to pay, or could say they pay their taxes (represented by province incomes), IE the regent is responsible for these...

NOTE- This is not an arguement of Economics, nor of Reality, but of Game Balance. Ymmv.

IMO, this "lack of reason to pay" is a big flaw in the BRCS version; that the Province Incomes are independant of the Guilds* and their status. It would be great if those taxes DID interact, somehow, with the Guilders, but they don't. 100 Levels of Guilds, or 0 Levels, no difference to the Province Regent's income. 0% tax, 100% tax, Guilders don't blink.
(* The same line of logic can be made for Temples, to a lesser extent.)

"So what?", you ask.

Consider this:

It's not unreasonable for a Province Regent to ask a Guild* to cough up a small percentage of its income, since the PR is providing roads, protection, and besides, it's his backyard. But there is NO economic incentive for the Guilder to accept. And if the Guilder refuses, there is no incentive for the PR not to grind him to grist, sweep away the dust, and decree that only "cooperative" Guilders need apply. (There are political and social repercussions, but we're talking pure economics, and economic incentive here.)

Worse still, while the PR can increase or decrease Taxes in a Province, the Guilders don't blink.

As stands, a Province Regent makes up their lack of funds by making "deals" with Guilders and others, and that's good- without an incentive, the Regent would brush all spying Guilders from his lands! But it's a seller's market, and short of seizures, the Province Regent has little pressure to bring to bear besides making the game unplayable for the other Regent/Player. It ~should~ be a win/win situation, an innately mutual benefit (if only to a small degree!) for a healthy market, but, as stands, without hammering out a treaty agreement, the parasitic Guilder gets the gold, and the Regent gets the shaft.

A creative Regent can make a decree to create/raise taxes on roads and ports and such, or even demand a "Bussiness Liscence" be bought, but the pressure is an "all or nothing" gambit - obey, or it's war, nothing more subtle than that. The Guilders can smile, disregard it, and claim to be the victim of unjustified violence when the PR tries to enforce their edict with seizures.

If a PR's demands are such that doing bussiness is impractical, there are no penalties to them if all their Guilders were to leave the provinces, and mercantile activity drop to 0.

There should be some more subtle and innate economic pressure that the two exert on each other- A reason why the PR wants a more flourishing Trade, and a reason why the Guilder wants the Province to be economically healthy as well. This would also give Province Regents a more tangible reason to avoid- or wage- wars that disrupt Trade.
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The solution? The economy of the Province benefits from more Guild Activity, regardless of Decrees, Taxes, Treaties, Agreements, or whatever. Perhaps a sum equal to 1/10, or 1/20, of all Guild income - including half of the Trade Routes- is added to Taxes. It's not "deducted" from the Guild- it represents a healthier economy. And Perhaps inversely affected (somehow?) by raising taxes- maybe the Guild Income is hurt by higher taxes? This creates a symbiotic relationship regardless of political alignment, and outside the control of Guilders- more Trade = more taxes, thank you.

Province Regents could still Decreee Taxes and make Treaties, but they don't "have" to in order to have a relationship with their local bussinessmen.

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Others certainly may have other experiences- maybe I've just been in aberrant games- but in looking at the rules (and human nature/player tendancies), there is something broken in here somewhere- not obvious or glaring, but fatal just the same.

[kgauck]

0 level holdings are like baby seals. They are wonderful and totally vulnerable. Unfriendlies are always looking to club your 0 holdings, and unlike all other holdings, these don't have a contested phase, they are just destroyed. So in practice, you can only have as many 0 holdings as you have RP in the bank to protect.

The landed ruler and his money woes. Here is my solution:
1) Law holdings should collect income just like regular holdings.
2) Any landed ruler seeking glory and renown needs to have one of the other kinds of holdings tied to his realm.

Law holdings should collect money like any other holding because law is a huge source of income. Courts impose fines, fees, often require bribes, and often are willing to accept cash in lieu of other punishments. Medieval monarchs often made an extra 20-30% more money when they controlled the legal system. England's crown was richer than France's because of the common law and the king's control of the courts. Second, the law can be writ in your favor or against you. The law can allow me to graze my sheep on your fallow land or it can forbid it. It can prohibit commerce on the holy days or it can allow it. It can require ships comming into harbor to hire local pilots or it can let ships plot their own way.

Suppose a province has three things that bring money into the native economy, and you as ruler of the laws want to get some of that money in your hands. The three things are pilgrims who visit the holy sites, the wool trade (you have a lot of sheep), and silver goods (you also have a silver mine in your province owned by someone other than you). You can tax the pilgrims, or not. Tax the wool trade or not. Tax the silver goods, or not. Who decides what gets taxed (and what gets made more expensive in a competative market)? The law holdings do. If you control the law holdings you can tax other people and not tax yourself.

So controlling law holdings means you not only determine what gets taxed, fined, licenced (fees), regulated, and otherwise encumbered, you can determine how much. Law holdings are money.

Second, a ruler who wants to be great, needs two kinds of holdings. Or he needs allies who need him more than he needs them. People who will hand over a few hold bars a season and be happy to do it. (Note this means you are spending RP for the guy, or otherwise protecting him. People don't stay happy giving stuff away unless there is a reason. They are buying something from you, make it worth what they are paying.) If the other rules in the area are buddied up already, you not only need to control another kind of holding, but you need more of them.

As it is, most landed rulers also have control of another kind of holding, frequently law. The ones that don't are basically figureheads.

[gazza666]

It's not unreasonable for a Province Regent to ask a Guild* to cough up a small percentage of its income, since the PR is providing roads, protection, and besides, it's his backyard. But there is NO economic incentive for the Guilder to accept.

Err, yes there is. A big one. In fact, it's so big that I'm surprised any province ruler would even consider building highways rather than let the guilder be responsible for it.

Trade Routes.

The income you can earn from guilds alone does not exceed what temples can provide; with trade routes, especially for big guilds, you can get much more. Trade routes require highways, and provide much more income for the guilder than they cost to maintain. Sure, a province ruler can move his armies around more easily, but that's a "nice to have"; a guilder needs trade routes to really kick his income into high gear.

[kgauck]

Generally, the only societies that historically built roads were unitary societies where soveriegnty was settled on one distinct power center (which controlled territory, armies, temples, trade, law, &c). Societies with distinct over-lapping power centers, such as found during the middle ages and in the design shown in BR don't build roads because one party pays for it and other parties benefit from it. Even guilders would be reluctant to spend money to create an infrastructure that could be used to bring hostile armies to all their best provinces unless they could defend those roads.

[gazza666]

Hostile units do not receive any benefits from highways (according to Strategic Movement in chapter 6), so that's no disincentive (ie these hypothetical hostile armies can come in and do nasty things to the guilders holdings with exactly the same efficiency as they would be able to do so without highways; at least the trade routes that the highways allow give the guilder more money to spend on troops).

[kgauck]

The Romans, the Chinese, and the Persians wished it worked that way. Unfortunatly, infrastructure doesn't take sides.

[gazza666]

The Romans, the Chinese, and the Persians wished it worked that way. Unfortunatly, infrastructure doesn't take sides.

It apparently does in Birthright, though.