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Thread: Chapter 5

  1. #1
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    Chapter 5

    I haven't played through a 3E Domain turn, so i'm just going on experience and what I've read.

    It seems to me that average GB collection is about the same in 3E as it was in 2E, however, there are more expenses in 3E. You do get automatic money from law holdings, so that could make up for the difference, without really playing through several domain turns I can't be sure.

    If a province’s ratings change in such a way as to make the current holding levels in the province illegal, then the holding levels must be immediately adjusted. The affected regent should be determined randomly in proportion to the number of holdings held.
    Rather than randomly determining which regent loses their holding or a holding level, perhaps some type of check. I was thinking a leadership check, and allowing spending of RP to affect the outcome. The lowest roll loses the holding/Holding level(s).

    This could be a variant, or Official rule.

    Regents should take careful note – modifiers to a province's taxation have significant impact on domain attitude. If this variant is used, the taxation modifier should be used as a bonus or penalty to the seasonal loyalty check for the affected areas.
    This doesn't seem like a very stiff penalty. In 2nd Ed. if taxes were severe province loyalty automatically went down one rank, and up one rank if no taxes were collected. I'm thinking that the modifier should be a factor of 5 or even 10. So -1 GB, would be +5 to the loyalty check, +1 GB would be -5 to check, and so on.

    Seizures reduce the income of one or more target holdings and/or the province itself. Seizures generate a total of 1d6 GB for the law holding.
    This just seems out of place to me. A random roll for GB collection, in 3E?? I'm really not sure how to handle it, maybe allowing a total of 1/3 the Law Holdings level for each of the holdings that is effected, so altogether a law holding could seize up to 5/3 it's level, 1/3 Province, 1/3 Temple, 1/3 Guild, 1/3 other law holdings, but only up to 1/3 the income of the target holdings. This could be significantly More than 1D6. This comes at a price, to go along with the negative feelings this creates it should cause a -1 on attitude check for Province ruler, and a -1 reaction adjustment against the regent, lieutenants and representatives of the law holder seizing. If the Province ruler is the law holder making seizures, they receive a -2 on the attitude check as well as the -1 reaction adjustment for themselves and representatives. Yes, this does mean that a regent with law holdings in another regents domain can use them to harrass the province ruler in many ways, including effecting province loyaty, but doesn't that make sense? Look at Robinhood. He was a law holder in the province, and used his law holding to seize assets, normally this would make the people hate him, but he gave the seized asseets he didn't need to them. However, the Caravans, tax Collectors and other nobles of the area (the ones losing the assets) hated him, and were not happy with the province ruler (the vasal sheriff) because he wasn't able to stop Robinhood. I suppose you could look at Robinhood as a Brigand event instead of a Law holding seizing assets, but I think he was more than a random event. I know it's not a perfect example, but you get the idea.

    Overall, I like the new Domain rules.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ploesch
    This doesn't seem like a very stiff penalty. In 2nd Ed. if taxes were severe province loyalty automatically went down one rank, and up one rank if no taxes were collected. I'm thinking that the modifier should be a factor of 5 or even 10. So -1 GB, would be +5 to the loyalty check, +1 GB would be -5 to check, and so on.
    Yeah, I agree - the penalty for overtaxing your subjects is virtually meaningless, especially if you've got any + mods on the loyalty rolls.

    I suppose you could look at Robinhood as a Brigand event instead of a Law holding seizing assets, but I think he was more than a random event.
    I don't know, a random event seems to describe Robin perfectly. John kept losing regency because he failed to resolve the problem, leading him to eventually take a personal interest (with the golden arrow tournament)... it seems to work. And certainly Robin didn't seem to be anywhere near official enough to count as a law holding regent.

    But I do take your point.

  3. #3
    Since both of my questions fall under chapter 5 I am posting here insted of creating a new thread.

    Question / idea one:

    The Ply Trade Character action seems a little dull. All trades have some risk in them and the greater the risk the greater the reward. I was wondering why this isnt accounted for or if it is, how, in the Action. I propose a system where the player actually makes a check, failure results in no money, but you can always 'take ten'. The base reward is still determined how it is listed but would be modified based on the DC you chose to roll against. You cannot just roll and pray for a high roll you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take before hand.
    {
    DC 10 - no risk reward reduced by 25%
    DC 15 - slight risk, normal reward
    DC 20 - low risk, Reward increased by 25%
    DC 25 - moderate risk, Reward increased by 50%
    DC 30 - High Risk, Reward increased by 75%
    DC 35 - Are you insane, Reward doubled.
    }


    NEXT:

    Now an observation about a specific Domain Action. Under Standard
    action Espionage you can create a Spy network DC 20, but they do not
    list a way to discover Spy networks within your own Domain, this seems
    a little strange to me as discovering and eliminating the spy networks
    operating in your own area would seem to be the responsibility of a
    Spymaster. So I was thinking that to discover and destroy a spy
    network it would be DC 25 (Harder to find then establish) + the
    Province / Holding level that controls the network.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalxero
    Since both of my questions fall under chapter 5 I am posting here insted of creating a new thread.

    Question / idea one:

    The Ply Trade Character action seems a little dull. All trades have some risk in them and the greater the risk the greater the reward. I was wondering why this isnt accounted for or if it is, how, in the Action. I propose a system where the player actually makes a check, failure results in no money, but you can always 'take ten'. The base reward is still determined how it is listed but would be modified based on the DC you chose to roll against. You cannot just roll and pray for a high roll you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take before hand.
    {
    DC 10 - no risk reward reduced by 25%
    DC 15 - slight risk, normal reward
    DC 20 - low risk, Reward increased by 25%
    DC 25 - moderate risk, Reward increased by 50%
    DC 30 - High Risk, Reward increased by 75%
    DC 35 - Are you insane, Reward doubled.
    }
    But D&D doesn't work things the way reality does.

    Of the applicable skills for a a "ply trade" action, only Craft has any penalty associated with it and that is 1/2 of the 1/3 material costs spent when failing by 5 or more. There are no "risks" associated with a profession or a perform check.


    NEXT:

    Now an observation about a specific Domain Action. Under Standard
    action Espionage you can create a Spy network DC 20, but they do not
    list a way to discover Spy networks within your own Domain, this seems
    a little strange to me as discovering and eliminating the spy networks
    operating in your own area would seem to be the responsibility of a
    Spymaster. So I was thinking that to discover and destroy a spy
    network it would be DC 25 (Harder to find then establish) + the
    Province / Holding level that controls the network.
    Try the last entry on table 5-17.

    30+ Trace the responsibility for an assassination, corruption, heresy, or other covert intrigue in the province
    If the character doesn't know something is going on then they shouldn't just randomly being finding things. IMO there shouldn't be a "standard" rule for random sweeps.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    But D&D doesn't work things the way reality does.

    Of the applicable skills for a a "ply trade" action, only Craft has any penalty associated with it and that is 1/2 of the 1/3 material costs spent when failing by 5 or more. There are no "risks" associated with a profession or a perform check.
    And in fact even then, that's only if you are trying to make something. If you just "work for a week", then Craft has no risks associated with it either.

  6. #6
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    hmmm, on the question of uncovering a spy network, I was thinking an Espionage action would work. While I understand that a regent wouldn't normally be looking for spies at every turn, a paranoid one might. Requiring an Espionage action be taken will stop regents from just looking every turn, and for rules sake, increase the difficulty by 5 (35+) if there isn't any curent activity.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

  7. #7
    The only additional comment I have for taxes in BRCS is that it seems to penalize the higher level provinces and benefits the lower level provinces. For instance, we have two regents both with 10 levels in provinces.

    Two Regents needs to raised 16 gold a season (for some odd reason, maybe an arms race).

    Regent A has a Level 6 and a Level 4 Province. He would need to raise taxes by +3 gb over three seasons (+1 gb, +2 gb, and +3 gb.) He has a seasonal penalty of loyalty of +1, +2 and +3 in the last season.

    Regent B has a 4 Level 1 Provinces and 3 Level 2 Provinces. He can raise taxes by +1 gb in 6 provinces in one season and only has a seasonal penalty to loyalty of +1.

    This seems to go agains the linear approach for income that is prevalent in BRCS. There seems to be no real benefit (except perhaps regency and troop minimums which can gotten around by having one high level province) to raise province levels.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    But D&D doesn't work things the way reality does.

    Of the applicable skills for a a "ply trade" action, only Craft has any penalty associated with it and that is 1/2 of the 1/3 material costs spent when failing by 5 or more. There are no "risks" associated with a profession or a perform check.
    I guess that depends on your Profession. What made me think of the risk vs reward thing is a character I have that took Profession: Thief and Profession: Spy. Both of these have risks involved of being caught. So I can chose to something so simple there is no risk, or I can be willing to risk being caught and go for a little better pay day in the end.

    Other Professions that have varying risks.
    Soldier - Can guard a door, to actually fighting in a battle
    Sailor - work a river boat - to sailing for the unknown
    Merchant - Buy product that he knows will make some money to buying something so totally unheard of he may not be able to sell it.
    ...

    Perform Risks:
    none - Perform on the streets or in a low tavern
    slight - perform in a common Inn
    Low - perform in an upscale Inn or small playhouse
    Moderate - Perform in a well known playhouse or for minor nobility of a near by allied Provence
    High - Perform for the Regent of a near by allied Provence, perform in a non allied Provence
    Nuts - Perform for the Regent of a non allied Provence


    Just about every profession & craft & perform action can have risks that scale nicely. I just depends on how willing the DM or Players are to actually think about it as a job and determine where the risks are.

    The scale may not always goto a DC 35 for every Job, and every job may not be able to take the easy road of the DC 10. Profession: Thief would not get the DC 10, or even 15 if I was DMing since that is a higher risk job. Profession: Baker on the other hand would not get the DC 25 - 35 since there is always someone willing to eat, even if it is the worst tasting bread in the world.

    I don't think this should be the main way Ply Trade is done but more as a variant rule to make the player feel more like they did something with their trade. As players progress they will, as you explain in the section about Ply Trade, start Plying trade less and less as they will require their character actions for something else.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalxero
    I guess that depends on your Profession. What made me think of the risk vs reward thing is a character I have that took Profession: Thief and Profession: Spy. Both of these have risks involved of being caught. So I can chose to something so simple there is no risk, or I can be willing to risk being caught and go for a little better pay day in the end.

    Other Professions that have varying risks.
    Soldier - Can guard a door, to actually fighting in a battle
    Sailor - work a river boat - to sailing for the unknown
    Merchant - Buy product that he knows will make some money to buying something so totally unheard of he may not be able to sell it.
    ...

    Perform Risks:
    none - Perform on the streets or in a low tavern
    slight - perform in a common Inn
    Low - perform in an upscale Inn or small playhouse
    Moderate - Perform in a well known playhouse or for minor nobility of a near by allied Provence
    High - Perform for the Regent of a near by allied Provence, perform in a non allied Provence
    Nuts - Perform for the Regent of a non allied Provence


    Just about every profession & craft & perform action can have risks that scale nicely. I just depends on how willing the DM or Players are to actually think about it as a job and determine where the risks are.

    The scale may not always goto a DC 35 for every Job, and every job may not be able to take the easy road of the DC 10. Profession: Thief would not get the DC 10, or even 15 if I was DMing since that is a higher risk job. Profession: Baker on the other hand would not get the DC 25 - 35 since there is always someone willing to eat, even if it is the worst tasting bread in the world.

    I don't think this should be the main way Ply Trade is done but more as a variant rule to make the player feel more like they did something with their trade. As players progress they will, as you explain in the section about Ply Trade, start Plying trade less and less as they will require their character actions for something else.
    While you certainly can go about profession skills that way - what I am referring to is the D&D mechanic involving how profession skills work.

    There is a single check made once a week to determine how much you make. There is no consequences for failure - other than you don't make anything.

    Also D&D "defines" professions as something that is a "service" anything that makes something is a craft instead.

    Perform works in the same manner in the core rules - except the check is per performance.

    Star Wars d20 has rules for gambling which cover "risks" as in how much of a stake you put up. But those rules apply to the gamble skill while the profession - gambler follows the normal rules for professions and does not apply to a single game but rather to an entire week's worth of work (the ups and downs are reflected by the check results - but even then you can't "lose").
    Duane Eggert

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    [QUOTE=Digitalxero]Since both of my questions fall under chapter 5 I am posting here insted of creating a new thread.

    Question / idea one:

    The Ply Trade Character action seems a little dull. All trades have some risk in them and the greater the risk the greater the reward. I was wondering why this isnt accounted for or if it is, how, in the Action. I propose a system where the player actually makes a check, failure results in no money, but you can always 'take ten'. The base reward is still determined how it is listed but would be modified based on the DC you chose to roll against. You cannot just roll and pray for a high roll you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take before hand.
    {
    DC 10 - no risk reward reduced by 25%
    DC 15 - slight risk, normal reward
    DC 20 - low risk, Reward increased by 25%
    DC 25 - moderate risk, Reward increased by 50%
    DC 30 - High Risk, Reward increased by 75%
    DC 35 - Are you insane, Reward doubled.
    }

    Looking at his proposal, he is not stating that their is a risk of losing gold if the check fails. The risk involves the amount of chances the regent is taking to get a bigger paycheck. Such as if he juggles for a group of workers (DC 15) he only has to do a decent job to get some rewards, though the rewards won't be great. On the other hand, if he juggles for the emperor (DC 35) he has to do a great job to get anything, but if the emperor is impressed he will be well compensated.

    This would be similar to craft, as the higher the DC of the item produced leads to greater income. But their would be no penalty for failure.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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