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  1. #11
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    There was a module that had a vast network of
    tunnels...mostly under the Five Peaks region; but
    there were goblins down there.


    Anthony Edwards

    P.S.- I made a sub-race of the Sidhe in a one shot
    adventure...the Sons of the Manslayer were elves that
    lived underground and made attacks against humans.
    They were lots like Celto-Scandinavian Elves: kinda
    outright evil. The party killed the lot of them
    because they worshiped the Manslayer.

    --- Daniel McSorley <mcsorley.1@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

    > On 8/11/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net>
    > wrote:
    > > Are you sure about this noted diggers thing? I
    > don`t recall that.
    >
    > I`m probably overgeneralizing from Kal Kalathor and
    > hazy recollections
    > about goblin mining.
    >
    > If you`re going to be running a game featuring
    > underground provinces,
    > goblins are a natural group to have, though.
    > Darkvision, for one
    > thing. If you don`t have goblins, or some other
    > group, then the whole
    > underground is basically dwarves and orogs, and
    > adding other groups
    > lends some extra political interplay to the
    > underground that could be
    > fun. Goblins in Cerilia aren`t all THAT awful,
    > after all- they have
    > organized countries and trade with their neighbors.
    > Maybe the dwarves
    > could ally with them to fight orogs, though you
    > never know when the
    > little blighters will turn on you.
    >
    > An underground game would also need underground
    > awnsheghlien. The
    > Lurking Horror, the Tunneller, the Cloaker, the
    > Aboleth, the Illithid.
    > Lots of iconic D&D monsters that could be turned
    > into freaky, scared
    > of the sunlight, underground-living Azrai bloods.
    >
    > --
    > Daniel McSorley

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 07:08 AM 8/11/2006, gazza666 wrote:

    >Dwarfs (and other intelligent species that tend to live underground,
    >such as goblins) can presumably become regents of underground realms
    >in Cerilia. Can underground provinces coexist with above ground
    >provinces, or are provinces more "2 dimensional" with regard to exclusivity?

    The short answer I would give to this question is no. The long
    answer is "yes" but takes a little explanation.

    When it comes to the underground races of Cerilia the examples we
    have in the published materials show us that they are beneath the
    surface of the earth, but not very far. For the most part we assume
    provinces to be "two dimensional" but I would suggest a couple things
    in this regard:

    1. The underground races of Cerilia use the surface enough to count
    as regular population levels of the province. Even those races that
    have delved several miles below the surface of the earth should
    probably fall into the same population figures of a surface dwelling
    population. The activities that support a population that dwells
    just under the surface (or even a few miles) are still going to rely
    very heavily on the same resources that a surface population
    does. In the Baruk Azhik sourcebook, for instance, we have
    information about dwarves doing things like allowing their goat herds
    to graze on the surface before they are kept underground and they eat
    plants or hunt for animals that are grown/live on the surface. As
    such they are "competing" with any surface dwelling population for
    the exact same resources.

    2. The domain rules are very, very general and the slight variation
    of depth that the Cerilian races live at might compare to the "above
    the surface" dwellings of a elven society that "lived up and amongst
    the trees in fantastical arboreal dwellings" or something like
    that. How about the fantasy/fairy tale standard of castles in the
    sky? If a province (which is 30 to 40 miles across) is assumed to
    only exist in a plane so that we can have an above ground province
    and a below ground province couldn`t we then also have one in the
    trees a hundred feet above the ground`s surface and an infinite
    number of them every "level" (in dungeon terms) below ground? I
    would suggest that provinces aren`t really two dimensional at
    all. They are three dimensional. I don`t think they extend all that
    far above or below the surface, but in order to qualify as another
    "province" with independent population figures, holdings, etc. one
    would probably have to go several miles, and be able to find an
    ecosystem that is fairly independent of the provinces above (or below) it.

    Those two things said, we`re talking about a fantasy setting, so one
    can easily get around them, and I would also give an example from the
    published materials that suggests there is a massive underground
    population that exists in what must be entirely underground
    provinces. The orogs that are described as having troubled the
    dwarves of Baruk-Azhik and are slowly but surely winning that
    conflict must exist in large numbers. Numbers that are approximately
    the same as the population of that dwarven realm and perhaps
    more. The texts describe them living in that same mountainous
    region, apparently in the provinces to the south beneath the lands of
    the Chimaera. They are not counted amongst the population levels of
    Chimaera. In fact, that awnshegh`s provinces have population levels
    so low they barely justify their human inhabitants.... Therefore,
    for orogs to exist in numbers that can threaten one of the largest
    dwarven kingdoms there must be large, subterranean provinces that
    exist below those that are on the "surface" of Cerilia.

    Similarly, we have a few examples of races like sahuagin (who live in
    the isolated island realm of the Kraken) who are not counted amongst
    the population levels we know about and appear to live in a sort of
    combined underground/underwater community. It is possible that
    population also represents a "below the surface" province.

    So, I think it is entirely possible (and supported by the BR
    materials) to have an entirely underground province in (under)
    Cerilia`s surface (maybe even below the sea.) If one wanted to write
    those provinces up, I would suggest a few things:

    1. The Create Province action should be quite difficult for most
    races. Exactly how difficult is a matter of debate, but I would
    think it should be outside the normal capacity of most Cerilian races
    by a good 5-15 points. Various races (goblins, orogs, dwarves) might
    get a racial bonus on such actions. A "non-subterranean" regent who
    performed research to learn how to create/support such a province,
    however, might be able to do so eventually.

    2. Similarly, ruling up the population levels of such provinces
    should be more difficult than normal.

    3. The shape, size and depth of the province should be handled
    carefully. I think it would be doable to simply have a "shallow"
    depth map that would go on top of (or below, I guess) the existing
    surface map. The province borders on such a map would be much like
    the "surface" maps, and those borders should be drawn in a similar
    fashion (that is, they should be irregular and avoid "four corner"
    crossings) but they should be substantially larger than surface
    provinces. Since they are tunnels and caverns an underground
    province is going to be extend quite a bit further in order to make
    up the "surface area" of a regular province. As a rough guess I`d
    suggest they might be twice or three times the normal 30-40 mile
    radius of a normal province. (In underground provinces there`s no
    reason why a culture wouldn`t use the walls and ceiling of an open
    space for various things, but that`s still a very small amount of
    area unless one is picturing the region actually honeycombed with
    caverns and tunnels.)

    4. Sources come from a wide variety of things. Crystalline
    structures, ancient caves, vast subterranean vaults are all as likely
    to be source manifestations as are babbling brooks, sylvan meadows
    and mighty cataracts. I would suggest, however, that underground
    provinces are not any more or less likely to have such features than
    would be a similar mountainous terrain, so their potential source
    levels should be about approximate to that.

    Hope that makes some sense,
    Gary

  3. #13
    Goblins in Cerilia aren`t all THAT awful, after all- they have
    organized countries and trade with their neighbors.
    On that note, have you folks had any luck with Goblin PC regents? I've always been interested in the idea since I saw those temples to Cuirecaen hidden in the Five Peaks and Thurazor-the idea of playing a Goblin King just sounds cool in a high fantasy sort of way, and the idea of a goblin nation trying to straighten itself out and force its way in to being recgonized as a civilized state by its neighbors sounds like a heck of a conflict, y'know?

  4. #14
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    I did play a character that became known as the
    "Goblin King" and he came to rule Thurazor and several
    areas of the Five Peaks...but he was a human
    fighter/wizard that used a Hat of Disguise early on to
    become the chief of a band of goblins...

    I did think about what it would be like to play an
    actual Hobgoblin ruling a goblin country though.


    Anthony Edwards

    --- ThatSeanGuy <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Goblins in Cerilia aren`t all THAT awful, after all-
    > they have
    > organized countries and trade with their neighbors.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > On that note, have you folks had any luck with
    > Goblin PC regents? I`ve always been interested in
    > the idea since I saw those temples to Cuirecaen
    > hidden in the Five Peaks and Thurazor-the idea of
    > playing a Goblin King just sounds cool in a high
    > fantasy sort of way, and the idea of a goblin nation
    > trying to straighten itself out and force its way in
    > to being recgonized as a civilized state by its
    > neighbors sounds like a heck of a conflict, y`know?

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