View Poll Results: How do you best describe the rules you use?

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  • 2nd rules with few house rules

    10 15.63%
  • 2nd edition rules with lots of house rules

    0 0%
  • 2nd ed – drop in sections (e.g., domain, bloodlines, etc.) into a different “setting”

    1 1.56%
  • BRCS with few house rules

    27 42.19%
  • BRCS with lots of house rules

    16 25.00%
  • BRCS – drop in sections (e.g., domain, bloodlines, etc.) into a different “setting”

    3 4.69%
  • Other – please provide details

    4 6.25%
  • Abstain

    3 4.69%
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  1. #11
    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    i play with D20 BRCS with lot of house rules.

  2. #12
    Our group play with D20 BRCS, but keep most randomization and bloodline strength from 2E.

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheal
    Our group play with D20 BRCS, but keep most randomization and bloodline strength from 2E.
    This one confuses me.

    The sanctioned chap 2 has variants for randomizing blood lines, strengths and abilities.

    It also "revised" the blood score to put it back inline with the 2nd ed numbers.

    It did, however change the method for determining number of blood abilities. There is no random method for determining if a scion has any blood abilities only which ones he has.

    So, which part of 2nd ed did you keep?
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
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    On 8/9/06, nagebenfro <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
    > Next job? Making them realise what holdings are, and
    > why It`s not realistic to have a 6 province country where all of your
    > proivinces are lvl 10, with level ten law and guild.

    A province in Cerilia is typically between 30 and 40 miles square, or
    about 1000 (habitable) square miles, give or take. 1000 is a
    convenient number for subsequent discussion.

    A level 10 province is approximately 100,000 people.

    A typical population density in a late medieval/early renaissance
    culture with arable countrysite is about 100 people per square mile
    (see http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm ). It takes a lot of labor to
    farm using medieval technology.

    Relatively poor land would have a population densite of about 30
    people per square mile, which corresponds to a province 5 or 6.
    Anuire is mostly rich, temperate land, previously forested, farmed and
    settled continuously for at least the last 5 centuries, if not the
    last 15. It should have population densities on the order of 100 or
    120 people per square mile.

    I would say the unrealistic countries are all the little duchies with
    lots of provinces 3 and 4 and 5 in rich, temperate, arable plains. 25
    people per square mile (a province 5) is a quarter of what the
    population should be, and a province 3 is 9000 people, less than 1/10
    the expected population for that region. This would indicate a plague
    that would make the black death look almost merciful by comparison
    (estimates put casualties in the bubonic plague of Europe between 1/2
    and 2/3), or wars more devestating than most any in human memory- the
    30 years war, for instance, a deadly, long-running war by any account,
    is variously estimated to have killed between 15 and 30% of Germany`s
    population.

    Anuire is not noted in any source material as having recently suffered
    wars of that scale or significant plague.

    A better explanation for the artificially low population of provinces
    in BR source material is that the population is there, simply poorly
    administered in most cases. A province noted as a 7 (49k people) is
    really a 10 with about 50% effective control of the province by the
    sovereign. The rest is divided among local barons, counts, knights,
    sheriffs, and other vassals of the monarch, or effective ungoverned.
    Or perhaps everyone acknowledges the distant, ineffective rule of the
    monarch, so you can only collect about half the taxes you might
    otherwise.

    This helps explain the ease of Ruling provinces in the original rules-
    you`re not spontaneously attracting thousands of people to the
    province (or worse, springing them forth fully formed from the
    overworked wombs of your loyal subjects), you`re simply investing in
    legal and administrative infrastructure to extend your authority over
    all these people.

    So I would say a realm of several provinces (10) is not unrealistic at
    all, but simply well-administered and prosperous, especially by
    Anuirean standards, a center of trade and industry for the region, and
    the seat of an influential, effective monarch.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

  5. #15
    Junior Member nagebenfro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L
    So I would say a realm of several provinces (10) is not unrealistic at
    all, but simply well-administered and prosperous, especially by
    Anuirean standards, a center of trade and industry for the region, and
    the seat of an influential, effective monarch.
    --
    Daniel McSorley
    I think my beef with the 10/10/0/0/10 provinces stems from the way I understood that table about province population, and also the blank map that came in the BR box set.

    In that box set, there is that blank hex map, where you have all the hexes and the map is designed to draw a 4 province kingdom on. It was my understanding that each /hex/ had that 40 mile diameter.

    In addition, I read the table about province population slightly differently, I suppose. I pay more attention to the largest settlement size than the citizen number, and usually take the number of citizens to be the number living in that largest settlement, with that settlement having areas around it (remember, bugger province sizes) equal to settlements listed on levels below the "size" of the province. So for me, a level ten province has at least one metropolis in it with 100,000 people in it. But it might also have a large city of 60,000 somewhere on the other side of the province, and a couple of small towns of 4,000-7,000 people in them in between the cities.

    Now, both of those might be wrong, but that's how I see them. In my understanding, (although I don't own any of the 2nd ed stuff yet, i'm looking for it at GenCon at the moment) there is only one level ten province on Cerelia? ot me that indicates rarity, or a need for them to be rare large trading metropoli that are recognised as regional hubs of great importance. That is why I feel making an entire nation of them is unrealistic.

    Plus, the other reason it gets my goat is that they picked it becasue it meant they were "maxed out" and could get plenty of money from it in taxes, not becasue it reflected how they wanted to represent their kingdoms. I have to get them to realise that the numbers mean something beyond being just numbers.

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L
    So I would say a realm of several provinces (10) is not unrealistic at
    all, but simply well-administered and prosperous, especially by
    Anuirean standards, a center of trade and industry for the region, and
    the seat of an influential, effective monarch.
    --
    Daniel McSorley
    And this makes a lot of sense.

    The base game mechanic tied into province level is province income.

    So if they people are actually there but not well-administered then they are not contributing to the realm's prosperity.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L

    This helps explain the ease of Ruling provinces in the original rules-
    you`re not spontaneously attracting thousands of people to the
    province (or worse, springing them forth fully formed from the
    overworked wombs of your loyal subjects), you`re simply investing in
    legal and administrative infrastructure to extend your authority over
    all these people.

    So I would say a realm of several provinces (10) is not unrealistic at
    all, but simply well-administered and prosperous, especially by
    Anuirean standards, a center of trade and industry for the region, and
    the seat of an influential, effective monarch.
    --
    Daniel McSorley
    Tolkienesque too. Like Gondor at the time of Lord of the Rings. As the power of Gondor dwindled so did the loyalty of the populations and so the effective base of taxes and enlistment. It took the Return of the King (books not movies) to rally the people back to allegiance to the Throne. I may be misreading it somewhat as I believe it was actually entire areas that broke away, but still what it reminds me of.

    I personally like the explanation a lot, and think it should be added into the revised BRCS. Along with raising the difficulty of Rule Province, but that is another topic.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L
    A better explanation for the artificially low population of provinces
    in BR source material is that the population is there, simply poorly
    administered in most cases. A province noted as a 7 (49k people) is
    really a 10 with about 50% effective control of the province by the
    sovereign. The rest is divided among local barons, counts, knights,
    sheriffs, and other vassals of the monarch, or effective ungoverned.
    Or perhaps everyone acknowledges the distant, ineffective rule of the
    monarch, so you can only collect about half the taxes you might
    otherwise.

    This helps explain the ease of Ruling provinces in the original rules-
    you`re not spontaneously attracting thousands of people to the
    province (or worse, springing them forth fully formed from the
    overworked wombs of your loyal subjects), you`re simply investing in
    legal and administrative infrastructure to extend your authority over
    all these people.
    Daniel McSorley
    I agree with your explanation regarding population density and rulership, but there is just one thing that doesn't add up: sources. If all of these people are there from the beginning, either as loners, rogues, bandits, independent localr or whatever, then why aren't they affecting the source potential of the province until they swear allegiance to the regent?

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    I agree with your explanation regarding population density and rulership, but there is just one thing that doesn't add up: sources. If all of these people are there from the beginning, either as loners, rogues, bandits, independent localr or whatever, then why aren't they affecting the source potential of the province until they swear allegiance to the regent?
    The affect on sources would come from the infrastructure development. Roads, or paths connecting villages, etc.

    The people are spread out so thinnly that the have minimal effect on the environment. It is when groups develop larger centers that major effects on the environment occur. Instead of small personal farms they are creating larger farms so that they can pay tithes and trade with others.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jew
    I personally like the explanation a lot, and think it should be added into the revised BRCS. Along with raising the difficulty of Rule Province, but that is another topic.
    I tend to agree - especially about the Rule Province issue.
    Duane Eggert

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