Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: chapter 3

  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,946
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    Secondly... let's look at a few examples for Weaponsmiths. An apprentice weaponsmith (with +5 skill) can make a longsword (martial melee weapon, DC15) in 2/3 of a week; to put it another way, he can make 6 of them per month.
    There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.

    So at most a craftman can make a single item in a week, unless he has high enough skill modifier to get to double or triple the check DC.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Technically it is only for treasure (PHB pg 167-168 and also pg 70 - if there is some where else that talks about selling things for less than market value other than treasure or loot please point it out to me).
    Sure. PH, 113 says: "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price." (it then proceeds to name trade goods as the only exception to this rule).

    That's pretty clear, but in any case there's no "treasure" label on goods that PCs sell. To a prospective buyer, what is the difference?

    Well I have already pointed out that source regents need to personally perform their domain actions involving sources so since they are for themost part those in question with magic items they "don't have a lot of character actions available.
    Well, source regents will typically be wizards. I've never yet met a wizard PC that was happy with the 2 spells per level they got for free; most will want to have more spells in their books than that. Even if they buy (or otherwise acquire) scrolls rather than perform the research themselves, that still takes a few days - so they can't be spending every month using their character action for domain actions. Magic item creation, at least at low levels, is fairly quick - a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.

    And I did not state "always" need to use thier personal actions I stated that in order to gain the benefits from their skill ranks and feats they need to personally perform said actions.
    You said it in response to my assertion that they would have character actions available from time to time; the implication was that this would happen fairly rarely. If that was not the intended implication then my apologies; I was simply responding that in my experience it wasn't at all rare for regents to have character actions free.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.
    I see where you're getting that, but I don't agree. It is my interpretation that the "double or triple" are examples, not intended to be exclusive. I don't think it means to exclude, for example, that if you get quadruple the result you don't save any time at all. It's true that the numbers are easier to work with if you keep it to "nice" fractions, but I see that more as a matter of convenience rather than an actual "inefficiency rule".

    For example, my masterwork smith example:

    Week 1: 40/300 progress toward masterwork component.
    Week 2: 80/300 progress toward masterwork component.
    Week 3: 120/300 progress toward masterwork component.
    Week 4: 160/300 progress toward masterwork component.
    ...
    Week 7: 280/300 progress toward masterwork component.

    In week 8, he earns 400sp progress and he only needs 200sp, so he finishes the masterwork portion in half the week. The rest of the week, he earns 18/35 progress towards the non-masterwork portion. He'll clearly finish it in less than half a week at week 9.

    Of course, even if we do assume you're right, that makes the actual profit per month even lower for the master craftsman - the table becomes even more incorrect (unless we're assuming he's training apprentices or something for part of his income).

  4. #34
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    182
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    A note on selling Magic Items. In my Campaigns I've never used the sell magic Items for 1/2 rule. I have Magic Shops in normal campaigns, and Auction Houses and so forth, but I have Mechanics set up for all of it.

    First off, you have to determine if the PC's are going to try an sell the item themselves or go through an intermediary.

    If they sell it themselves, then you have a Roleplaying oportunity, and should reward them appropriately. I will eventualy let them meet the guy, then we do roleplaying, and have some fun, as each side tries to build up bonuses to their Diplomacy check (what I use for the eventual bargain roll). In the end we do an opposed check. For each point the PC's win the roll, increase the value by 5% for each point up until +100% value, for each point they lose by decrease the value of the item by 5% up to 50% value. As an asside, my players know that if they don't sell it now they won't have anyone interested in this item until after their next adventure at the earliest, so if they need the money, they will sell it. it's the chance they take. Since this is an adventure, it will take some time.

    Now, on Auction Houses, they are only avaiable in Major cities (province 5 or better in Birthright), and there Items will always be bid on, as long as their starting price isn't too low (see Below). With the AH, I generally have them chose a minimum bid. I then will give a roll to determine what % someone is willing to pay for it (D20x5+10%). The players can increase the roll (or decrease) by roleplaying and advertising what their selling. I have given bonuses up to +10 (50%) for this activity, I leave it up to the GM's to figure out what they want to do. As I said, in an AH I garantee there is interested parties, more than one, so the PC's only need to set their minimum bid below what I roll for the sell value to sell the item. If it doesn't sell, well AH only happens once a month, and so their only recourse is role-playing with an established baseline value, and a couple leads. The AH takes 5-15% depending on where they are, and what contats they have. I always have the AH available when the PC's are ready, but no more than once a month. This is one of the quikest ways to unload stuff.

    The last option is hiring someone to sell it. This person will take 25% of what they sell it for, but are master bargainers. Depending on the size of the city, that will determine the chance of finding an interested party. Use Domain level to make the determination (level x 10%), to determine if there is an interested party, keep rolling until you fail, there can be a number of people interested, up to 10, or the province level. Each person gives him a +1 Roll on his bargaining check. Basically I make this guy maxed out for his bargaining skill, then make a roll with all the modifiers, and use that to determine what he sells it for ((Roll x5%)x110%=Sold value). The PC's can set a minimum, and he will keep trying until he sells it. Each month he starts over from scratch (redetermine all values)

    Now, I wasn't wholly truthful when I said I don't use the 1/2 value rule. The PC always have the option of selling it to a shop that will pay up to Half the value of the item (maybe more if it's something that would definetely sell). They just rarely do that since it's less profitable, and far less fun.
    Last edited by ploesch; 08-11-2006 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #35
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,946
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    Sure. PH, 113 says: "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price." (it then proceeds to name trade goods as the only exception to this rule).

    That's pretty clear, but in any case there's no "treasure" label on goods that PCs sell. To a prospective buyer, what is the difference?
    Well now we would be discussing the difference between reason and requirments or logic and rules.

    I won't diagree with the logic but I also don't think it was intended to have characters that create items (magic or mundane) to lose money on the deal or to make less than the market price on a normal situation.


    Well, source regents will typically be wizards. I've never yet met a wizard PC that was happy with the 2 spells per level they got for free; most will want to have more spells in their books than that. Even if they buy (or otherwise acquire) scrolls rather than perform the research themselves, that still takes a few days - so they can't be spending every month using their character action for domain actions. Magic item creation, at least at low levels, is fairly quick - a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.

    [/quote]

    Yup he could - minimum 1 day per item.

    But once you use your character action to create itmes then you can't use that character action for any other type of action. No adventuring no spell research, etc.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.
    OK, sorry, I see what you're getting at here; you're not critiquing my mastersmith example, you're going after the apprentice.

    I'm still not really convinced that it breaks anything to allow fractions like "2/3 of a week", but for the sake of the example let's instead assume the apprentice was making Falchions instead. At 75gp:

    Week 1: 225/750
    Week 2: 450/750
    Week 3: 675/750

    He needs 75sp to finish it, which means that he can finish it in 1/3 of week 4. It takes him 3 1/3 weeks to make a falchion, so he can make 1.2 of them each month; each one nets him 12.5gp profit, so that's a total of 15gp profit per month (the same as before, unsurprisingly).

    OK, I suppose you could argue that if he finds himself finishing a sword with 2/3 of the week left he's not allowed to start another one, but frankly I don't really see the merit of that argument. He could spend 9 weeks getting three falchions to the 675/750 stage and then finish all three in the 10th week.

    Basically if you want to insist that only "double" and "triple" matter, then craftsmen have to carefully select whatever item is closest to a multiple of their take 10 check * the DC to make it (for the apprentice, if there was a martial weapon that cost 45gp or 90gp there would be no issues at all, and it seems silly that weapons can be more or less efficient to create based on a rounding error).

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    I won't diagree with the logic but I also don't think it was intended to have characters that create items (magic or mundane) to lose money on the deal or to make less than the market price on a normal situation.
    I think we at least partially agree here; that's why I don't use the "50% rule".

    a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.
    Yup he could - minimum 1 day per item.

    But once you use your character action to create itmes then you can't use that character action for any other type of action. No adventuring no spell research, etc.
    Eh? That seems in stark contradiction to the chapter 5's definition of the "Research" character action:

    You learn spells, perform spell research or create a magical item. Spellcasting regents may learn or research conventional spells, research realm spells, make magical items, or perform other such tasks.
    (spelling out multiple activities that this encompasses)

    and
    This time can be spent on multiple magical activities (should time allow).
    It's not sanctioned, I know, but if there is a change in the works intending to remove the option for multiple activities in this 32 day period I'm at a loss to understand why that would be desirable. It takes a full month (at least) to research a realm spell, but normal spell research should be able to be combined with item creation. Indeed:

    For each full week of time not spent in specific research, you make one-quarter of the monthly amount that you would make Plying Trade.
    it seems you can even combine it with mundane item creation.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ploesch
    A note on selling Magic Items. In my Campaigns I've never used the sell magic Items for 1/2 rule. I have Magic Shops in normal campaigns, and Auction Houses and so forth, but I have Mechanics set up for all of it.
    (snip!)
    These rules look pretty good! They remind (in a very loose fashion) of the rules for trading in Traveller (the old black book set, although I think The New Era and Marc Miller's Traveller use similar rules).

    If I might suggest one possible change (really to enlist your opinion rather than to disagree), you might want to make it a Profession: Merchant based thing rather than Diplomacy. I say this because Diplomacy already has a lot of uses; with the typical amount of item selling that goes on in my campaigns, I'm not sure it's a good idea to add even more features to Diplomacy. Diplomacy could be used to make the buyer's attitude better, which might give a bonus (or penalty, if it ends up worse) to the Profession: Merchant check. What do you think?

  9. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    124
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I agree...PCs are above and beyond the "common" mold,
    even above the Regents that rule the various domains.
    They are "heroes" first and last; so they should not
    be bound by all the "common" things...

    I think that it is perfectly easy for a DM to have a
    low/rare magic world with heroes that are larger than
    life.

    I don`t agree with doubling the price of magic items,
    it only makes it easier for the wealthy and powerful
    such as the Gorgon to dominate any magical encounter
    simply because he has more money and XP to burn than
    anyone else...and will thus have more and better magic
    at his disposal.


    Anthony Edwards

    --- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    This is why I think changing magic items is a superior
    solution to just
    making them cost more. At the end of the day, I don`t
    think it really
    matters that much if PCs have pretty much the same
    gear as they would in
    (say) Eberron. PCs are rare; PCs having lots of
    magical items does not
    necessarily imply that magic items are not rare,
    because there`s a lot
    more NPCs than there are PCs. And by requiring
    "regency recharging" or
    "attuning" or something similar, you can tie the magic
    items into the
    setting - which is surely a highly desirable outcome.
    Magic items that
    need regency are immediately unique to Birthright and
    immediately are
    also rare, as only scions can recharge them (so PCs
    that are not scions
    will have to play nice with the rulers if they want
    their gear to work).

    Though I realise that may be a somewhat radical change
    with no real
    precedent in the source material.
    -----------------------------------------------------


    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com

  10. #40
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    182
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    (snip!)
    These rules look pretty good! They remind (in a very loose fashion) of the rules for trading in Traveller (the old black book set, although I think The New Era and Marc Miller's Traveller use similar rules).

    If I might suggest one possible change (really to enlist your opinion rather than to disagree), you might want to make it a Profession: Merchant based thing rather than Diplomacy. I say this because Diplomacy already has a lot of uses; with the typical amount of item selling that goes on in my campaigns, I'm not sure it's a good idea to add even more features to Diplomacy. Diplomacy could be used to make the buyer's attitude better, which might give a bonus (or penalty, if it ends up worse) to the Profession: Merchant check. What do you think?
    That's a great idea. I use Diplomacy because it's something that can be used untrained, which is kinda the point. but I'm sure there are better or more appropriate skills that can be used, and perhaps have Diplomacy, appraisal, acting, lying, etc give situation bonuses, based on the situation. The truth is I recently got back into a regular game after about a year hiatus, and we're playing 2 ed BirthRight, so I didn't have a book nearby to look at skills, I may have been using another skill besides diplomacy. Profession: Merchant is a great idea, and if untrained, I suppose other skills could be used with a situation modifier of -1 to -5 depending on the situation.

    I ran out of time while writing that this morning, so I was hurried, and didn't get all my thoughts down. I added a section I forgot.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.