chapter 3

[irdeggman]

I'm with you, but the thing is players can turn a profit by crafting mundane items. That's even more boring (it takes longer, for one*), but that's allowed. There's more of an inbuilt balance for magic items (eventually they'll run out of XP); seems silly not to allow any profit at all.

*Unless they have Fabricate...

But then they have taken themselves out of adventuring so if the player wants to play a craftsman that only stays in town and never adventures (or almost never) then he can. His PC will not advance in level and if he is part of a "party" unless all of the players are running craftsmen then they will "leave" the PC and go off adventuring.

You basically can only craft one thing at a time since the progressed measured reflects that.

You also can't take 20 on a craft check, although you can take 10.

[irdeggman]

I completely agree that if your campaign never gets beyond about 10th level, then there aren't any serious issues. You need to keep an eye on damage reduction creatures, but even those aren't really show stoppers.

My own tastes run to higher levels of play, which is typically where the problems start to show.

And at higher levels is where things in the core rules start to break down also. Wizards and other spellcasters start to out perform fighters a lot.

That was the main reason for the up powered fighter feats in PHB II by the way. While many people have commented on the fact that those feats seem to be overpowered they have fogotten that they are geared for higher level fighters.

[irdeggman]

A way I like to handle trade (buying and selling) at the character level is to use the NPCs attitude and Diplomacy.

Since there are no current rules for bartering (something people have brought up on other boards) I use the attitude system and diplomacy to adjust the attitude accordingly (if possible).

PC selling items:

Attitude of buyer/% of listed market price paid

Hostile/ won't buy
Unfriendly/ won't buy
Indifferent/ 25%
Friendly/50%
Helpful/75%


PC buying items:

Attitude of seller/% of listed market price PC must pay

Hostile/ won't sell
Unfriendly/ 150%
Indifferent/ 125%
Friendly/ list price
Helpful/ 75%

What this does is always reflect a profit ratio for the middleman (i.e., the vender) but yet reflects the relative attitude towards the PC. This attitude should be an individual attitude and not a general one. Venders would start out as Indifferent normally. Past history, differences in races/cultures should have an effect on the starting attitude and any subsequent checks made to adjust it.

[gazza666]

But then they have taken themselves out of adventuring so if the player wants to play a craftsman that only stays in town and never adventures (or almost never) then he can. His PC will not advance in level and if he is part of a "party" unless all of the players are running craftsmen then they will "leave" the PC and go off adventuring.

Someone crafting magical items takes themselves out of adventuring as well, so I don't really see why they can't make a profit at it.

If you're playing regent level Birthright, I would have thought that there would be bound to be times when one player has a free character action while the others do not. If he uses this action to practice his craft, profession, or art, he turns a small profit for the month. If he uses it to make a magical item for sale, then he comes out behind.

You basically can only craft one thing at a time since the progressed measured reflects that.

I don't see any reason you couldn't craft more than one thing at a time, but you wouldn't save any time over crafting them in series. Certainly it's simpler to say that they can only craft one thing at a time, though.

You also can't take 20 on a craft check, although you can take 10.

Taking 10 is typically enough. It isn't particularly difficult to get a +10 Craft check for even a fairly low level character, which is enough to make masterwork items - the benefits of anything higher than +10 are subject to diminishing returns.

I'm certainly not suggesting that Craftsman & Carpenters is a particularly exciting idea for a new RPG based on the d20 rules. But in some forms of play in Birthright it seems quite likely that you will have "downtime", so crafting becomes something that might be done on occasion. I think that if you can make money crafting mundane items, I see no really compelling reason why you can't make it crafting magical items. And if you can indeed sell magical items for more than what it costs you to make them, I don't see any logical reason why a buyer would necessarily discriminate between something you crafted and something you hauled out of a hole in the ground. If anything, the latter is less unbalancing - you have total control over how many magical items are found, while you cannot control a PC using item creation feats to the same degree.

[irdeggman]

If you're playing regent level Birthright, I would have thought that there would be bound to be times when one player has a free character action while the others do not. If he uses this action to practice his craft, profession, or art, he turns a small profit for the month. If he uses it to make a magical item for sale, then he comes out behind.

IMO this will happen a whole lot less often than you imagine.

If the regent is not using his character action for the domain action then he can't not apply any personal bonuses to the action (i.e., from skill ranks, feats, etc.)

I don't see any reason you couldn't craft more than one thing at a time, but you wouldn't save any time over crafting them in series. Certainly it's simpler to say that they can only craft one thing at a time, though.

For magic items it is specified that only 1 at a time can be worked on, it doesn't state this specifically for normal items but the logic and flow of checks is consistent for both.

Taking 10 is typically enough. It isn't particularly difficult to get a +10 Craft check for even a fairly low level character, which is enough to make masterwork items - the benefits of anything higher than +10 are subject to diminishing returns.

Let's see +3 due to ability score and then a +7 due to skill ranks (minimum level of 4th level to get 7 ranks (level +3 for max ranks).

[irdeggman]

I'm certainly not suggesting that Craftsman & Carpenters is a particularly exciting idea for a new RPG based on the d20 rules. But in some forms of play in Birthright it seems quite likely that you will have "downtime", so crafting becomes something that might be done on occasion. I think that if you can make money crafting mundane items, I see no really compelling reason why you can't make it crafting magical items. And if you can indeed sell magical items for more than what it costs you to make them, I don't see any logical reason why a buyer would necessarily discriminate between something you crafted and something you hauled out of a hole in the ground. If anything, the latter is less unbalancing - you have total control over how many magical items are found, while you cannot control a PC using item creation feats to the same degree.

Now it takes a real ong time to craft items. There has been a lot of discussion about how long the time period is to make masterwork items.


Base requirements form the SRD:

All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 circumstance penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.

To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the DC from the table below.
3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week.
If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces.
Creating Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Time it takes to craft an item.

Example: masterwork longsword.

Assumptions:

+10 to check (includes set of masterwork tools – no tools at all equates to a –2 on check).

Taking 10 on all checks.

Craft skill check result: 20

Craft DCs:

Martial weapon (longsword) – Craft (weaponsmithing): DC 15

Masterwork component: DC 20

Market price for longsword: 15 gp (150 sp)

Masterwork component: 300 gp (3000 sp)

First craft the sword:

Need to make 150 sp progress to complete.

DC check of 20 exceeds the 15 required so it is a success.

Progress made (in a week) = 20 (check result) x 15 (DC of check) = 300 sp worth of progress in a week so item is complete in 1 week’s time.

Masterwork component:

Need to make 3000 sp of progress to complete.

DC check of20 equals the DC of 20 to create so it is a success.

Progress made in (in a week)= 20 x 20 = 400 sp worth in a week.

So it will take 8 week to complete the masterwork component. The only conditions that allow the amount of time to be reduced is if the craft check exceeds the craft DC by double or triple (double takes half the time and triple takes one-third). In this cast it is impossible to get double or triple the DC with a craft check. You would need a +20 to get double for the base DC and +30 to get double for the masterwork portion.

Total time to craft would be 9 weeks and it would cost 105 gp in raw materials and the item could be sold for 315 gp to yield a profit of 210 gp for 9 weeks worth of dedicated work.

[gazza666]

IMO this will happen a whole lot less often than you imagine.

If the regent is not using his character action for the domain action then he can't not apply any personal bonuses to the action (i.e., from skill ranks, feats, etc.)

(shrug) That's not my experience. Of the three regents in the game we're currently playing, only my (source) regent frequently uses his character action. The other two often spend them to train up hit points or practice their Craft for cash. We don't the skill bonuses to domain actions to be much of an incentive, and the really good feats (Master Administrator, for example) now require you to be 5th level before you can take them due to the skill ranks requirement.

Let's see +3 due to ability score and then a +7 due to skill ranks (minimum level of 4th level to get 7 ranks (level +3 for max ranks).

+2 for good tools lowers that to only 2nd level; if you have a lieutenant to help out, you can get Aid Another for another +2. And if you're truly desperate, there's always Skill Focus.

[gazza666]

Now it takes a real ong time to craft items. There has been a lot of discussion about how long the time period is to make masterwork items.

This is interesting.

My understanding is that the 1/3 base price you pay for materials counts towards the completion of the item, so the actual time requirement is 2/3 what you calculated. You may well be more correct here; that's just the way we've generally played it.

It's also worth pointing out that you would only get half price when you sold it, as far as the core rules are concerned. You still make a profit, but only a small one.

In any case, I'm not sure what the argument is. Does it take a long time? Sure. I wasn't disputing that. My experience is that this time is often available, though, since from a practical perspective the regents want to go on adventures together, and in any month where not everyone has a character action free, the ones that do might as well do something constructive. If your experience is that regents tend to always need/use their character action to get a skill or feat boost to their domain actions, then clearly Birthright is played in different ways by different groups.

[gazza666]

Incidentally, the amount that a regent can earn in a month with the "ply trade" action is kind of strange. Firstly, you have the "Average" column, in the case of a Journeyman, being higher than any journeyman would earn (they earn 5gp * bonus, and the max bonus for a journeyman is only +9).

Secondly... let's look at a few examples for Weaponsmiths. An apprentice weaponsmith (with +5 skill) can make a longsword (martial melee weapon, DC15) in 2/3 of a week; to put it another way, he can make 6 of them per month. It will cost him 30gp, and he'll sell them (to some unscrupulous merchant) for half price, getting 45gp and earning a 15gp profit. The table says he'd get 10gp, but that's OK - the 5gp can be written off as his living expenses for the month (or whatever his master skims off the top).

For a journeyman, it's better to put him on the exotic stuff. Keeping to the sword theme, let's say our journeyman (+8 skill) is making bastard swords for the month. He can make about 3.7 of these per month, clearing a profit of a little over 20gp. That's not so good; this is only half what the table says he should be able to earn. If you assume he can sell the swords at full price instead of half price, then he earns over 85gp in the month, which is too far in the opposite direction (it's now double what he "should" earn).

Moving along to masters, they make masterwork bastard swords. With a skill of +10, they can pump out about 0.47 of a sword each month, making a profit of about 25gp per month (selling at half price) or 105gp per month (at full price); well under the 200gp per month the table suggests they get.

Is the table supposed to include the possibility of training apprentices and the like? If the master craftsman is being paid to train apprentices as well as the raw profits from his goods, then I can see the figures working out OK.

Of course D&D has the issue in that realistically some crafts and professions would be more profitable than others. For game balance reasons they chose to equate them all. If you wanted to make some professions or crafts harder, the obvious answer is to raise the DCs required to make (eg) armour or jewellery - but given that most PCs aren't going to be using these skills very often, the level of abstraction works out OK for most games.

[irdeggman]

This is interesting.

My understanding is that the 1/3 base price you pay for materials counts towards the completion of the item, so the actual time requirement is 2/3 what you calculated. You may well be more correct here; that's just the way we've generally played it.

Nope check out the text in the PHB on where to get the price from that is used to determine the progress.

Pg 70 (PHB)

1. Find the item’s price in Chapter 7: Equipment of this book or in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, or have the DM set the price for an item not otherwise described. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).

It's also worth pointing out that you would only get half price when you sold it, as far as the core rules are concerned. You still make a profit, but only a small one.

Technically it is only for treasure (PHB pg 167-168 and also pg 70 - if there is some where else that talks about selling things for less than market value other than treasure or loot please point it out to me).

In any case, I'm not sure what the argument is. Does it take a long time? Sure. I wasn't disputing that. My experience is that this time is often available, though, since from a practical perspective the regents want to go on adventures together, and in any month where not everyone has a character action free, the ones that do might as well do something constructive. If your experience is that regents tend to always need/use their character action to get a skill or feat boost to their domain actions, then clearly Birthright is played in different ways by different groups.

Well I have already pointed out that source regents need to personally perform their domain actions involving sources so since they are for themost part those in question with magic items they "don't have a lot of character actins available.

And I did not state "always" need to use thier personal actions I stated that in order to gain the benefits from their skill ranks and feats they need to personally perform said actions. This in and of itself will force regents to pick and choose when to use full domain actions instead of standard domain actions - becasue when it is a really important domain action then they will try to use every benefit they have. Thus they will most likely not have character actions available all of the time.